Rant on the stupidity of Rule enforcement

Post by **Tivia** » Fri Jul 20, 2007 3:46 pm

This is just one of those things that annoy me.

Now everyone here knows I have written scripts in the past for the automation of certain tasks. Some it bothers quite a bit, some not so much. Of course most everyone knows I quit writing scripts about two years ago or so, not off any morality issue but more of I got tired of people abusing the scripts I wrote and handed out freely.

This rant is about hypocrisy in the enforcement of rules. You see, games like EQ, and FFXI, and WOW all have a Strict no third party software rule. Included in the EULA's now is a little note that they Will scan your processes if they suspect you are using third party software, which is a privacy rant in and of itself. Now the little caveat here is that not only do they specifically not mention Hardware such as the Logitech G15 keyboard, the Nostromo game pad and other programmable game controllers, but they in turn, turn a complete blind eye. I ask what is the difference? I will tell you from a programmers perspective there is NONE. I can literally export a number of older scripts I have written directly into the scripting engine built into my G15 and simply modify it slightly and it works 100% the SAME as if I had been running AC tools.

I decided to test their theory, and see just how blind of an eye the GMs in EQ would turn to this. So I exported a script into my G15, that effectively did all my fighting in a room for me all I did was set a salt shaker on the hotkey and it sat there for 4.5 hours killing away before a GM finally showed up to see if I was afking. He apparently did a scan and did not see any known third party scripting software, so he sent me a tell. Engage conversation with GM because I was there. He asked me what I was doing and I said, just grinding exp how can I help you? I replies well you have been here for over 4 hours and seem to be using repeated motions so I had to check you for 3rd party software, and did not find none so I assumed you were using hardware and checked if you were afk. I replied, yes I am using hardware and a combination of in game macros to fully automate it, however I am at my keyboard. (This is partially true because EQ has Audio triggers that sends me an Alert if I receive a tell, I was actually sitting on my couch 5 feet away watching TV only glancing at the computer out of the corner of my eye) I also went on to state that I was unaware that hardware hotkeys tied into in game macros was against the EULA. He replies "Oh it's perfectly fine, we only care that you are not extended afk. We will usually give you a few minutes to respond because we realize you might have gone to get a drink or something to that effect" (HELLO Hypocrisy!) I reply "So...As long as I use my keyboard to run a script, and I am able to respond it is ok? But if I use a piece of software to do the exact same thing I get banned?" He replies yep that is pretty much how it works.

Seriously, this is lame by any standard. Either enforce it across the damn board, or don't flipping bother. If they are AFK Ban them, if they are at their keyboard and not outright hacking. Who the hell cares how automated it is? Ok so I do not want to mash the same key over and over for a freaking hour, so I use a piece of software and I am at my keyboard able to respond instantly I get banned. I use my keyboard and I can be taking a damn shower and respond 5 minutes later and its all good.

UnFreakingBelievable.

Kintrra · Post by **Kintrra** » Fri Jul 20, 2007 6:35 pm

Wow...that is pretty freaking stupid. o.O;

Keavy · Post by **Keavy** » Fri Jul 20, 2007 11:26 pm

I think the idea behind the rule is that hacks can be implemented into the third-party software which can open up the game or your account to exploitation.

Still, it is a BS rule.

Post by **Sugami** » Sat Jul 21, 2007 12:12 pm

Well you can't really stop people from buying keyboards and joysticks nor can you really check if they are using them but this small programs can be found, yes?

Also what Keavy said. Using 3rd party software also puts the user at risk and various other things that I can't think of right now

Post by **Alya Mizar (Tsybil)** » Sat Jul 21, 2007 4:03 pm

I think it is because one can be spotted with a maybe not legal in itself scan, and the other cannot be.

No less hypocritical for that though. Its saying "We can't catch these cheaters, so we don't call it cheating."

Daweezyone · Post by **Daweezyone** » Sat Jul 21, 2007 6:58 pm

lmao,

I'm a 10 year systems operator with another game company.. What this person is saying is half truths to fit his own personal gripe...

No offence inteded, but if you want a discussion about ethics within a game you should turn to yourself and a counsulor before pointing fingers..

Lieing to a sysop about not knowing the rules?.. LOL, Comon thats just ludicris.. If your a programmer you know full well what is legit and what isn't period, not to mention the fact rules are clearly posted for and are a responibility of the player to know before conducting such behavior in a game..

No offence intended but your what i call a cheat..

Don't like it? Then you simply need to stop doing it.
It is a super simple solution that you can control..
Of course this is all up to the individual and his or her scrupils..Nothing more.

In simple lamen terms without going into a long discussion the following is a good guidline
*(not a definitive definition, but a lamen persons easy to understand basic interpretation of.)

Cheat = someone who exploits known game faults and or cheats built into a game.(I.E console games for most part)

Hack = someone who purposfuly tries to unbalance game play in his or her favor with tools/scripts/programming/third party tools etc. and can include willful destruction of ones computer system or take over of ones system etc.

Im not telling anyone what they should or should not do in a game.
You have to live with what you do or don't do. Im not anyones judge or jury.

I personaly found this a bit over the top on the posters part and i responded.

If you dont like the way the rules are, then go play something else is my point of view/philosiphy.

Steps of soapbox...

BTW if such companies employed "conductor" technology there wouldn't be any of the hacks in the games perported, But thats another topic in of itself.

Okuza · Post by **Okuza** » Sat Jul 21, 2007 8:37 pm

I think that this issue is almost certainly due to GM control issues. SE (any MMORPG really) ends up having HUGE problems if they give GMs any leeway in making decisions about who should be banned and who shouldn't. A lot of GMs may not play the game or even any MMORPG at all; they end up really hating the players -- seeing them as whiney idiots that deserve all kinds of maltreatment just for the GM's amusement. So, they have pretty strict rules about everything; eg. "run this tool. If it detects things, throw in jail and warn", etc..

Some GMs are better than others, but a lot are little more than trained monkeys.

--

BTW, get Process-Guard or something similar to stop apps from scanning your active process list. It's kind of interesting to see which Apps do it. None of them have even the slightest legitimate reason to do a scan.

Post by **Tivia** » Sat Jul 21, 2007 8:54 pm

Daweezyone wrote:lmao,

I'm a 10 year systems operator with another game company.. What this person is saying is half truths to fit his own personal gripe...

No offence inteded, but if you want a discussion about ethics within a game you should turn to yourself and a counsulor before pointing fingers..

Lieing to a sysop about not knowing the rules?.. LOL, Comon thats just ludicris.. If your a programmer you know full well what is legit and what isn't period, not to mention the fact rules are clearly posted for and are a responibility of the player to know before conducting such behavior in a game..

No offence intended but your what i call a cheat..

Don't like it? Then you simply need to stop doing it.
It is a super simple solution that you can control..
Of course this is all up to the individual and his or her scrupils..Nothing more.

In simple lamen terms without going into a long discussion the following is a good guidline
*(not a definitive definition, but a lamen persons easy to understand basic interpretation of.)

Cheat = someone who exploits known game faults and or cheats built into a game.(I.E console games for most part)

Hack = someone who purposfuly tries to unbalance game play in his or her favor with tools/scripts/programming/third party tools etc. and can include willful destruction of ones computer system or take over of ones system etc.

Im not telling anyone what they should or should not do in a game.
You have to live with what you do or don't do. Im not anyones judge or jury.

I personaly found this a bit over the top on the posters part and i responded.

If you dont like the way the rules are, then go play something else is my point of view/philosiphy.

Steps of soapbox...

BTW if such companies employed "conductor" technology there wouldn't be any of the hacks in the games perported, But thats another topic in of itself.

And you are what I call a typical idiot without a little thing called "Reading Comprehension".

Since in all your intelligence as a 10 year Sysop you were completely unable to understand a thing I said, I will spell it out for you in more simplistic terms.

1) I consider both forms of cheating. While I stated I have no moral inhibitions about either, I never denied that both are cheating.

2) I pointed out that I consider it hypocritical that game companies consider one form cheating, but they do not consider the other. When I pointed out the fact that both can be used to achieve the same means. In this particular case, automation of game play. The entire purpose of the rant was to point out that the end result is Exactly the Same. As such they should either a. Enforce the rules across the board equally, or b. quit bothering except in cases of obvious AFKing or outright hacking.

3) I lied to the GM? wow no kidding? Watch out everyone here comes the Clue train, destination You. Good job there genius, I stated what I stated with the deliberate intention of testing their reaction. I wanted to see if they actually considered hardware macros cheating or not. The entire purpose of what I did was to get the opportunity to Ask the Enforcers of the policy straight up why they considered one different then the other. Of course I know the rules, I thought that much was fairly obvious by my mentioning that Hardware is left out of the EULA.

No offence intended but your what I call a Moron. Actually, never mind Please be offended.

For record, even the hardware uses a piece of software to achieve use of the macros.
Generic game pads use programs such as Joy2Key
The G-15 has its own custom software, so does the Nostromo pad.

So the only real difference between something like Autohotkey, AC Tools and a half a dozen other well known scripting softwares is that piece of hardware that was purchased. The end result is the same things can be achieved with hardware as with the software. Someone who is creative enough can write very robust botting and scripting into the software that comes with the hardware and at this time the gaming companies are looking the other way. If this is not hypocrisy then I do not know what is.

Last note for the mouthy genius who made the mistake of bagging on me without reading anything I wrote. I have long been an advocate in favor of stronger enforcement of ingame rules across the board, while at the same time putting pressure on gaming companies to stop putting mindless repetitive task's in game that encourage botting. So next time you decide to jump into a conversation with your psudo superior intelligence, make certain you are actually able to grasp what a person has written before getting on some moral high horse and making yourself look like a complete idiot.

Thanks come again.

Post by **Alya Mizar (Tsybil)** » Sun Jul 22, 2007 2:51 am

Tivia

Kintrra · Post by **Kintrra** » Sun Jul 22, 2007 5:57 am

Also Daweezyone, next time you decide to open your mouth somewhere to be a moron, please be considerate of who's name you rip off. The real Dawezy that roams these boards could put you and your attempt at intelligence in a rather similar position of a backpedal. ^.~

Okuza · Post by **Okuza** » Sun Jul 22, 2007 8:23 am

Just ignore the flame-bait. 'Dun worry that anyone gives it even half a mind, Tivia.

One thing to watch out for is that the GMs might not send a tell. They might do something else entirely -- like put a pop-up on your screen to be clicked by you within a certain time to test for AFK or port you to jail first, then ask questions later. Or summon an extra agro critter. If your script isn't clever enough to handle a change in surroundings and call you, one of the few GMs that does have some latitude in interpretation might act.

Post by **Tivia** » Mon Jul 23, 2007 2:51 am

Okuza wrote:Just ignore the flame-bait. 'Dun worry that anyone gives it even half a mind, Tivia.

One thing to watch out for is that the GMs might not send a tell. They might do something else entirely -- like put a pop-up on your screen to be clicked by you within a certain time to test for AFK or port you to jail first, then ask questions later. Or summon an extra agro critter. If your script isn't clever enough to handle a change in surroundings and call you, one of the few GMs that does have some latitude in interpretation might act.

Just for the record, I am not persisting in using it. I rather detest automating experience grinding. Skill's are one thing, experience is another. The only purpose I had in this was to point out what I feel is a very serious flaw in the way rules are enforced.

As for the flame bait, I have been around here enough years that I feel I am more then capable of taking care of myself.

Kailea · Post by **Kailea** » Mon Jul 23, 2007 2:06 pm

The TOS says 'software" not hardware, SE cant stop you from using hardware, but they can prevent you from using software.

Heck when FFXI came out the Logitech G15 keyboard was promoted to work well with the game.

Post by **Shirai** » Mon Jul 23, 2007 2:26 pm

Kintrra wrote:Also Daweezyone, next time you decide to open your mouth somewhere to be a moron, please be considerate of who's name you rip off. The real Dawezy that roams these boards could put you and your attempt at intelligence in a rather similar position of a backpedal. ^.~

Which, by looking at the IP isn't the Dawezy we know either.

@Daweezyone,
most of us are fully aware about cheating,hacking and the ToS' several games hold up.
You don't need to teach us bad or wrong, we know that.
Read the opening again carefully before posting such one sided rants which give the impression you only read half of what's written.

And another tip: Carreer or job sais and does nothing here.

Okuza · Post by **Okuza** » Mon Jul 23, 2007 7:56 pm

If you want to be strict about the TOS it says 3rd party software. This implies that's it's perfectly OK to write your own software and use that. You are the "2nd party" in the two-party agreement (SE is first).

How can they tell the difference between code you wrote and what someone else wrote? Are they psychic?

Post by **Tivia** » Mon Jul 23, 2007 8:14 pm

Okuza wrote:If you want to be strict about the TOS it says 3rd party software. This implies that's it's perfectly OK to write your own software and use that. You are the "2nd party" in the two-party agreement (SE is first).

How can they tell the difference between code you wrote and what someone else wrote? Are they psychic?

They look for well known scripting programs in their scan. Things like AC Tools, AutoHotkey, Xunleashed and a number of other scripting engines that are freeware. Other then that the only way they can catch you is by stupid behavior (Afk Botting) etc. Those that write their own custom bots using full blown languages such as Perl, VB and C++ as long as they are not dumb enough to name it "FFXI HAXOR SCRIPT RUNNER" in their processes list, there is literally Zero chance of them being able to catch you outside outright hacking your computer.

Okuza · Post by **Okuza** » Mon Jul 23, 2007 9:46 pm

There's no way to catch a smart tool user anyway: you just block reading of the process list and/or process memory. I was speaking about the legal angle.

Personally, I just view the TOS as a public announcement of things they don't want people to do and which they may decide to terminate their business relationship with you. Someday, they might end up banning someone that is both rich and a fanatic and get the hell sued out of them, but I'd say that's a pretty damn low risk for them.

Post by **Sugami** » Tue Jul 24, 2007 11:55 am

Tivia wrote:Those that write their own custom bots using full blown languages such as Perl, VB and C++ as long as they are not dumb enough to name it "FFXI HAXOR SCRIPT RUNNER" in their processes list, there is literally Zero chance of them being able to catch you outside outright hacking your computer.

I'd totally do that if I knew how

Pheonixhawk · Post by **Pheonixhawk** » Tue Jul 24, 2007 10:57 pm

How about just playing the game and living your life? Not like your gonna get SE to change the policies on a game THEY created...

Post by **Tivia** » Wed Jul 25, 2007 2:01 am

Pheonixhawk wrote:How about just playing the game and living your life? Not like your gonna get SE to change the policies on a game THEY created...

Where's the fun in that?

Pheonixhawk · Post by **Pheonixhawk** » Wed Jul 25, 2007 3:56 am

Tivia wrote:
Pheonixhawk wrote:How about just playing the game and living your life? Not like your gonna get SE to change the policies on a game THEY created...
Where's the fun in that?

Theres plenty of fun in that. Right over -----------------> there.

Keavy · Post by **Keavy** » Wed Jul 25, 2007 4:13 am

I wish they would stop making things so f***ing hard to level.

For example, Healing Magic. Used to be I could run out to one of the Aht Urghan BST camps and cure mobs for skillups. Thanks to a recent change, that no longer works. Same with leveling Summoning Magic skill by summoning your avatars over and over. Now to get skillups you actually have to use their Blood Pacts. Goddamn it, SE. Until level 70 SMN is a pseudo-WHM! SMN's rarely use their blood pacts!

Stuff like that pisses me off. Let us have some of our exploits, you sons of bitches!!!

Post by **Shirai** » Wed Jul 25, 2007 6:10 am

Keavy wrote:Same with leveling Summoning Magic skill by summoning your avatars over and over. Now to get skillups you actually have to use their Blood Pacts. Goddamn it, SE. Until level 70 SMN is a pseudo-WHM! SMN's rarely use their blood pacts!

Erm, summoning and releasing actually still works to skill up summoning magic.
You just have an extra chance to get a skill up during a blood pact.

And you can still get healing magic skill healing undead, the ones just outside aht uhrgan are probably just too low for your level. (If you mean the fomor there.)
Easy prey to 75, so you're probably capped on them.

Keavy · Post by **Keavy** » Wed Jul 25, 2007 8:25 am

Shirai wrote:
Keavy wrote:Same with leveling Summoning Magic skill by summoning your avatars over and over. Now to get skillups you actually have to use their Blood Pacts. Goddamn it, SE. Until level 70 SMN is a pseudo-WHM! SMN's rarely use their blood pacts!
Erm, summoning and releasing actually still works to skill up summoning magic.
You just have an extra chance to get a skill up during a blood pact.

And you can still get healing magic skill healing undead, the ones just outside aht uhrgan are probably just too low for your level. (If you mean the fomor there.)
Easy prey to 75, so you're probably capped on them.

An LS member said the last patch "fixed" those "exploits" so I was going on that.

My Healing Magic skill is like...250ish...

Post by **Shirai** » Wed Jul 25, 2007 11:23 am

Keavy wrote: An LS member said the last patch "fixed" those "exploits" so I was going on that.

My Healing Magic skill is like...250ish...

They did indeed a while ago, but that was when you could get healing magic skill on normal mobs without actually doing damage to them.
You do however damage undead with cures as you heal a certain number of HP on a player character so you should be getting skill ups healing them.
(It's the same as hitting mobs for 0 damage, you used to get skill ups from that but eventually SE fixed that as well.)
Countless RDMs used to skill up dagger that way by using a beestinger?, keeping the mob asleep and skilling up while hitting Crabs for 0 damage.
BLMs did the same with signet staves to get their staff skill up.

By the looks of your current skill by the way it seems that you have indeed capped skilling healing magic on the undead (Fomor) outside Aht Uhgan.
You should be getting skill ups on higher level undead but don't worry too much about that skill,
it will cap eventually and there's pretty much only one spell where you get a notable benefit from healing magic skill and that is Cure V.
(Higher healing magic skill also increases the chance of removing hard to remove status ailments but so far that has only been Doom, used by Taur mobs and Yagudo NMs in Dynamis.
The Taur Doom is completely random to remove, it doesn't have a 100% successrate trying to remove it with Cursna or Holy water and the Yagudo NM Doom is cured when you kill the NM before Doom kills your tank)
If you really want to skill up that skill, cure some undead mobs during besieged, but don't worry too much about it.
It will cap eventually in exp/merit parties and as I said before, the skill doesn't have that great a benefit.

Regarding summoning magic:
I capped my summoning skill before the patch. (2 hours before the maintenance

)
Summoning magic still skills up by summoning your pet out, they never touched that.
However they did add skill ups during both types of Blood pacts (Where the spell would be the only way to skill up before.) to make it easier to cap the skill.
Some people that tested said that using for example Blood pact: Rage used on higher level mobs (VT/IT/HNM and Dynamis mobs) would also give higher skill ups and Blood pact: Ward occasionally added another skill up while the old fassioned summon/release method still has about the same rate of skill ups as it had before they fixed smn.

ScarlettPheonix · Post by **ScarlettPheonix** » Wed Jul 25, 2007 11:29 am

Your LS member is a bit mistaken (not completely, but a bit)- it was a few updates ago and what was "fixed" was the ability to get skill-ups by casting Cures on non-aggressive mobs (ie, colibiris, dhamels, etc).

The Cures wouldn't do any damage to them since they're not undead, so they wouldn't aggro and you could just stand there spamming cures at them for skill ups.

Cures have always been a form of damage to Undead in FF and I sincerly doubt SE counts the cures in FFXI as "exploits" when used against undead mobs.

Healing Magic is slow to level- it was my last skill to be capped after I reached 75 (well, except for Divine, but that doesn't count) so I wouldn't really worry too much. You'll get there eventually and there's always the Undead Besiegeds, which are great times to skill up Healing and Divine Magic

Post by **Tivia** » Wed Jul 25, 2007 1:34 pm

Keavy wrote:I wish they would stop making things so f***ing hard to level.

For example, Healing Magic. Used to be I could run out to one of the Aht Urghan BST camps and cure mobs for skillups. Thanks to a recent change, that no longer works. Same with leveling Summoning Magic skill by summoning your avatars over and over. Now to get skillups you actually have to use their Blood Pacts. Goddamn it, SE. Until level 70 SMN is a pseudo-WHM! SMN's rarely use their blood pacts!

Stuff like that pisses me off. Let us have some of our exploits, you sons of bitches!!!

And now you understand why I created the skill raiser script years ago. Skill raising is one thing, FFXI made it take stupid amounts of time for a very trivial benefit. This goes to the heart of my comment of why I have been advocating for years for Developers to stop putting stupid crap like this in game. It pisses players off universally and serves no purpose. If you are going to make skill raising take time like this, Make it have a meaningful reason behind it.

Okuza · Post by **Okuza** » Wed Jul 25, 2007 6:25 pm

IMHO, excessive time to increase skill is far far better than what some other games do (eg. WoW & Vanguard). There, when you want a new skill, you have to head back to town and buy it. It sounds like a cool idea when you consider it as a story and not a game (running off to a teacher to be taught), but the only effect it really has on the game is to put great big random halts to parties. People want to stop and rush back to town after every ding.

At least the excessive time method gets people out of town and keeps them in parties. BTW, I do think it's a bit excessive for some skills (parry). I'd definitely script parry if it was possible.

Post by **Sugami** » Thu Jul 26, 2007 11:55 am

Everything in FFXI takes stupid amounts of time

I like how Guild Wars deals with skills; primarily you quest for them

you can buy ones you miss or there are odd ones that aren't questable (generally they're crap though

) and you can also "steal" skills by killing NMs and using another skill near the dead body