Shoot first?

[Sugami]

StockyBoy Quoted: (blah, still cant figure out how to make it do 2 quotes ^^;)

Type it in manually. <quote="name"></quote> 'cept with square brackets.

/drg on Bst is just saying "Please, kick me from the party and blist me"
Only 2 ways to go on Bst, /nin with axes or /war with scythe, and my scythe still needs to skill.

(S)he's right. Really only WAR can get away with /DRG since they can't sub WAR but even then all those moron sheep poser WARs will still call you gimp

/WAR and Axe not work? It's a better skill than Scythe isn't it? And you still get Attack Bonus, Berserk, Warcry and Double Attack none of which /NIN offers.

[Stockyboy]

(S)he's right. Really only WAR can get away with /DRG since they can't sub WAR but even then all those moron sheep poser WARs will still call you gimp

/WAR and Axe not work? It's a better skill than Scythe isn't it? And you still get Attack Bonus, Berserk, Warcry and Double Attack none of which /NIN offers.

Ya see, this is where I suggested the use of Tatimi shield, because as far as I've seen if you're gonna use 1h and a shield, it's the best thing to use, suppose there's viking shield or Picarons shield though.

Btw, I've seen Drk sub Drg too ^^ Good results lol I remember seeing some Souleater jumps for 400ish

[Sugami]

My highets was 700something. Heard of a DRK/DRG doing 1K+ but he must have had Brutal Earring and had Double Attack trigger.

Must be a fun sub but doesn't stand-up to Double Attack from /WAR (both have Attack Bonus).

[Stockyboy]

I dunno, I really like the results I've seen from Drk/Drg, it's more a TP spam sub cause of the two jumps, with a brutal earring I reckon it's better than /War.

Never done it myself tho, Drg still to be leveled to 37 (@20)

[Sugami]

Brutal works with any sub so can't really use that as a reason that /DRG will be better

3 Jumps every 3 minutes but I'd imagine you'd want to save High Jump for hate shedding so you won't have to hold back as much on Guillotine. I'm still skeptical though it'd be interesting to see the results, even if it's only a bit behind /WAR it'd still be an acceptable sub for a nice change of pace.

[Stockyboy]

Plus the acc bonus trait means possiblity of different food or gear, plus latent 5% haste earring is just sweet.

[Murto]

/WAR and Axe not work? It's a better skill than Scythe isn't it? And you still get Attack Bonus, Berserk, Warcry and Double Attack none of which /NIN offers.

Bst has no combat JAs or JT's, /war is great for using with Scythe (Bsts' next best weapon), and /nin is more suited to using 2 Axes.

For bst, /nin actually (as opposed to other jobs, like Mnk and so on) improves your dmg output. nothing wrong with /war and using 1 axe, just Tp gain is so crap and slow, its not worth it really.

In a regular party, Bst is a DD with no JAs or Traits. We're more DoT as opposed to a War75, who's more about using Rampage as often as possible. But what dmg Bst loses (from not having agressor and so forth) we make up for by having CC.

...... stupid crab, lol *kicks CC*


Now onto /drg. Umm, i think /drg could work for me if i had scythe capped with the WSNM done. Hehe, itd be an interesting change, specially if i had the Doubleattack+1 Scythe >:D. I might lvl drg to 37 one day and give it a go.

[Pheonixhawk]

Thats a pretty huge Siggy Murto.

[Sugami]

The only bonus you get from /NIN are Utsusemi (how often does Rampage or Guillotine pull hate for you? Do you even get Guillotine?), bonus from off hand weapon and 15% pseudo-Haste from Dual Wield II. With lack of Haste gear I don't think it'll amount to all that much TP for you and you're missing out on Double Attack which probably makes up for it up but I'm only guessing here.

I shouldn't think one single handed Axe would be any slower on TP gain than a Scythe

I doubt there'd be much difference either way in performance, just that everyone is a sheep and thinks /NIN and Dual Wield is the best thing since sliced bread

[Murto]

Thats a pretty huge Siggy Murto.

Yea, i gotta fix that ; ;
It needs to be smaller and not so crappy XD

Nah, you only get 7 or 8 Tp per hit with 1 axe. It can take a full minute to get Tp for a weaponskill. Which is perfect for soloing though, mind you. But in an Axe Burn party, the Wars in that time would have done 2 WS's each. Plus theres the lower DoT issue by using only 1 axe. For axe weilding /nin is the best dmg sub for Bst. Our crab makes up for the "Double Attack" and "Kick Attack" traits that Monks and Wars get.

I really wanna play with /drg and /sam using a Scythe though. Itd be interesting to see the results.

Maybe start with some other weapon combos? Maybe get Bst into the KRT Party scene and bop some undead? (Crabs deal blunt dmg by the way). Kclub {Can I have it?}

[Okuza]

The only bonus you get from /NIN are Utsusemi (how often does Rampage or Guillotine pull hate for you? Do you even get Guillotine?), bonus from off hand weapon and 15% pseudo-Haste from Dual Wield II. With lack of Haste gear I don't think it'll amount to all that much TP for you and you're missing out on Double Attack which probably makes up for it up but I'm only guessing here.

I shouldn't think one single handed Axe would be any slower on TP gain than a Scythe

I doubt there'd be much difference either way in performance, just that everyone is a sheep and thinks /NIN and Dual Wield is the best thing since sliced bread

Double-Attack is 10% from sub/war. So, it's a straight +10% to both DPS and TP-rate. JT is +10 atk, which is mostly meaningless -- maybe +0.5% DPS. 'Zerk is +25% ATK -- say +100'ish ATK 60% of the time if you keep it up, though you better not get hit -- you're even more of an MP sponge with -25% def. Rougly 3-5% DPS gain while it's up, so maybe 3% overall. Add that to DA gains and you end up with maybe +15% DPS and +10% TP.

DWII is 15% weapon haste only, so +15% DPS, but TP-rate stays the same (it scales from the new delay, not the old for DW). If you have Suppanomimi, that's 20% DPS and again no extra TP. If you lack Suppa, sub/war is probably better than sub/nin for DD. If you have Suppa, sub/nin is better. This is all for 2x1H only. If you're not using 2x1H, the *only* benefit is utsu. If you are normally 1H, sub/nin will outperform sub/war for most 75 melee. If you're not using Beserk as much as you can, Sub/nin is a lot better. It's not being a sheep. Sub/nin is just outright better.

[Stockyboy]

Baaaaaaaaaa

[Sugami]

People tend to overlook the effectiveness of Attack Bonus, Double Attack, Berserk. Attack+10 is a lot, why do people pay millions more for an extra +1 or +2 if it wasn't (besides them being white-border whores and possible gilbuyers)? It's really Double Attack + Berserk combo which makes WAR sub so sexy.

Go into a party as /WAR and you can swap between Axe and Scythe as you please. Go as /NIN and you're stuck on Axe, might get a bit boring

Your crab doesn't allow you to WS quicker, Double Attack does. Your crab may have its own WS but more often than not it'll be something crappy like Stoneskin or Shell

SAM have any Attack Bonus traits? People have tested Hasso and as a sub it seems to grant roughly Haste+10%, Accuracy+10 and STR+5 (at 75). It's a fun sub to have but doesn't top Berserk and Double Attack for pure DDage.

[Stockyboy]

People tend to overlook the effectiveness of Attack Bonus, Double Attack, Berserk. Attack+10 is a lot, why do people pay millions more for an extra +1 or +2 if it wasn't (besides them being white-border whores and possible gilbuyers)? It's really Double Attack + Berserk combo which makes WAR sub so sexy.

Go into a party as /WAR and you can swap between Axe and Scythe as you please. Go as /NIN and you're stuck on Axe, might get a bit boring

Your crab doesn't allow you to WS quicker, Double Attack does. Your crab may have its own WS but more often than not it'll be something crappy like Stoneskin or Shell

SAM have any Attack Bonus traits? People have tested Hasso and as a sub it seems to grant roughly Haste+10%, Accuracy+10 and STR+5 (at 75). It's a fun sub to have but doesn't top Berserk and Double Attack for pure DDage.

Yay white border whores >_>

As far as I know, Sam gets no Atk bonus, War and Drk do for sure, I think Drg does too.

EDIT: Blu gets Atk bonus from certain spells at 38.

[Sugami]

No one really cares about BLU at least for purpose of support job.

DRG gets Attack Bonus I at Lv.10 and Accuracy Bonus I at Lv.30 (I think). Believe DRK gets Attack Bonus II at some point but it's not really a great option for a support job, not too sure when WAR gets Attack Bonus.

Looking at it objectively; subbing SAM instead of WAR you will lose Attack Bonus (Attack+10), Double Attack (10%), Berserk (Attack+25% 60% of time), Warcry (and Defense Bonus) and gain Meditate (60%), Hasso (Haste+10%, Accuracy+10, STR+3~5 when active), Seigan and Store TP (+10%?)... numbers don't really add up in favour for /SAM.

[Stockyboy]

Drk is becoming a more used SJ now, with Wars having a newly found Fad for great swords, I see lots of Wars as /Drk on Phoenix D:


War gets one atk bonus, at 30.
Drk gets two, one at 10, one at 30.
Drg gets one at 10.

As far as we know the Attack bonus JT gives the same for all jobs.

But! Attack bonus traits don't stack, if you have Attack bonus I from War sub and from Drk, you won't have the effects of two Attack bonuses.

[ScarlettPheonix]

No one really cares about BLU at least for purpose of support job.

Well, I wouldn't say that. It makes a very nice sub-job for soloing as RDM.

[Okuza]

Attack+10 is a lot

It's a lot from a single piece of gear, but in terms of actuall effect on your damage output the effect is so small that you can't even parse the difference. I generally use 10 ATK = ~1% dps and I'm being really generous there. I've seen a lot of folks jump up and down and say things like "O.Kote makes me hit for 60 instead of 30!", but I've parsed H.Kote on myself (15atk instead of 20) and I only get about +1~2% (usually closer to 1%).

It's really Double Attack + Berserk combo which makes WAR sub so sexy.

Yes. If you're not using Beserk, you're not getting enough benefit from sub/war to make it nicer than another sub. Personally, I forget to use Beserk all the time. If you're good at keeping it running, then you'll maximize your benefts from sub/war.

People have tested Hasso and as a sub it seems to grant roughly Haste+10%, Accuracy+10 and STR+5 (at 75). It's a fun sub to have but doesn't top Berserk and Double Attack for pure DDage.

{Hmmm.}If that makes Hasso damn nice and close to identical in DD power to sub/war. Sub/war = +10~15% dps depending on how religiously you use Beserk and how much you gain from it. Haste 10% gives 10% dps & tp. That part is identical to DA from WAR. I'd guess ACC+10 and STR+5 would be 2~3% dps. That puts sub/sam at 10~13% dps gain to sub/war's 10~15%. And, the really nice thing about it is that it doesn't do this by creating a larger hate spike for the WS while the player has 25% lower DEF. It's a shift from extra spike to extra DOT.

Haste and ACC also make it a lot easier to shift to eating meat instead of eating sushi. If you're over 90% hit rate without food, then usually you'll gain more from meat than fish. You really need a ton of +acc gear and full weapon merits to do that, though.

The bad thing about SAM sub is that SE was trying to give war something to sub instead of NIN. For 1H DPS subs, it's already NIN >= WAR > SAM. 2H weapons themselves have serious issues compared to 1H, which is the main reason jobs that have a 1H/2H choice all pick 1H. DRK and DRG might really like sub/sam's new changes -- more DRK than DRG I'd guess. DRK/war is the one with agro & tanking issues and the new SAM trades spike DD for DOT pretty nicely while adding some tanking features.

[Murto]

Yea, I've been talking to the Bsts in the community. /nin is the way to go. /war with scythe is ok, but we dont get Spiral Hell (the big hitting ws for Scythe), and even though having attack bonus, warcry, doubleattack and so forth brings good DoT to the table... we lose out lots more /war with 2h weapon than we do just /nin.

Either way though, I reckon subs more suit your style more than anything. And hell, nothing out-performs a properly equipped Bst. I need to work on my acc and attack, my gear needs work ><

Saw a mate of mine in action in a tpburn the other night, he was a monster! >< Leaving the wars (and me ; ; ) for dead thats for sure.

[Sugami]

Drk is becoming a more used SJ now, with Wars having a newly found Fad for great swords, I see lots of Wars as /Drk on Phoenix D:

O-kay... I'm sorry but that's showing up the WARs on Phoenix. Subbing DRK doesn't enhance Great Sword and it's something like a B or B- skill rating as opposed to the A+ from Great Axe

Well, I wouldn't say that. It makes a very nice sub-job for soloing as RDM.

Okay for RDM and DRG is makes a good solo sub but I wasn't talking about solo

Yes. If you're not using Beserk, you're not getting enough benefit from sub/war to make it nicer than another sub. Personally, I forget to use Beserk all the time. If you're good at keeping it running, then you'll maximize your benefts from sub/war.

Speaking from a DRG's PoV there's no reason you should turn Berserk off when you're in these 70+ parties and probably 60+ too. Hate can be Jumped away with ease and if you still have it after a High Jump then something's wrong with the party.
A smart DRK should be able to keep Berserk up for the full 2 minutes(?) aswell.
As a NIN I expect Berserk could be the difference between life and death if you get caught with you pants down, I'd only activate it for WS and promptly deactivate it but I can't speak for 70+.

{Hmmm.}If that makes Hasso damn nice and close to identical in DD power to sub/war. Sub/war = +10~15% dps depending on how religiously you use Beserk and how much you gain from it. Haste 10% gives 10% dps & tp. That part is identical to DA from WAR. I'd guess ACC+10 and STR+5 would be 2~3% dps. That puts sub/sam at 10~13% dps gain to sub/war's 10~15%. And, the really nice thing about it is that it doesn't do this by creating a larger hate spike for the WS while the player has 25% lower DEF. It's a shift from extra spike to extra DOT.

Haste and ACC also make it a lot easier to shift to eating meat instead of eating sushi. If you're over 90% hit rate without food, then usually you'll gain more from meat than fish. You really need a ton of +acc gear and full weapon merits to do that, though.

The Haste and Accuracy is nice, lets not forget the free 60% TP but the STR is pretty meaningless in the long run and coupled with the loss of Double Attack and Berserk doesn't really pull it even to /WAR.
I have 3 Polearm merits and can comfortably use attack food in the Mire, beastmen would really require sushi but I'm also lacking O-hat or Pahluwan headpiece. DRGs and DRKs (dunno about the rest) could use attack food before Hasso came along, it just makes it a bit easier.

Let's not forget Hasso slows down magic so DRK's can't stun as quickly not really much of an issue for merit parties.

Yea, I've been talking to the Bsts in the community. /nin is the way to go. /war with scythe is ok, but we dont get Spiral Hell (the big hitting ws for Scythe), and even though having attack bonus, warcry, doubleattack and so forth brings good DoT to the table... we lose out lots more /war with 2h weapon than we do just /nin.

Spiral Hell or Cross Reaper? I'd imagine Cross Reaper would be the one you don't get as Spiral Hell is questable (240?) and you get an A- skill(?). I've heard DRK's say SH is only better than CR at 300%

[Stockyboy]

Both scythe and GS are B+, and I believe they use it for Ground Strike on HNMs, but I dunno since I haven't actually been to a HNM yet (Stupid NA shell does events early morning for me)

[Murto]

Actually, if you refer to Beastmaster Wiki (on FFxiencyclopedia, its a bloody bible i swear, lol)....

Bst can use like 3 Scythe WS's, a few more if you /war....

And we have Access to Spiral Hell, we dont get Guillotine, Crossreaper, or any of those ones. Spiral Hell is the only good one we get, but its good enough. The Int on our AF is a bonus towards Spiral as well I might go skillup, i wanna try it.

Also, on a side note, the job gets better axes sooner, access to Tabar-Class axes (which war does not). Bst gets Decimation, Spiral Hell and Evisceriation, but misses out on Black Halo by a fraction ; ;

[Sugami]

No Guillotine? Dang that's the whole point of using Scythe (and it looks cool). BST gets Evisceration? What skill rating they have in dagger?

A+ > B+ it still seems stupid to use Great Sword over Great Axe, with both Axe and Great Axe WAR can be in both Light and Darkness.

If they were using it for HNM then I'd expect they'd sub THF over anything else to make sure they land that WS.

[Stockyboy]

No Guillotine? Dang that's the whole point of using Scythe (and it looks cool). BST gets Evisceration? What skill rating they have in dagger?

A+ > B+ it still seems stupid to use Great Sword over Great Axe, with both Axe and Great Axe WAR can be in both Light and Darkness.

If they were using it for HNM then I'd expect they'd sub THF over anything else to make sure they land that WS.

Still, with martial scythe you can use spiral hell at 200% and have the effects of 300% which is just

[Sugami]

Okay if that's the case then is

Guillotine (100%) x2 < Spiral Hell (300%) x1

or

Cross Reaper (100%) x2 < Spiral Hell (300%) x1

or

Spiral Hell (100%) x2 < Spiral Hell (300%) x1 ???

NB: Martial Scythe has pretty crappy damage compared to Orichicalum/Triton or what other Scythes are around (I'm pretty sure).

[Stockyboy]

Storm Zaghnal

Suzaku's Scythe

Scarecrow Scythe

These are about the top 3 Bst scythes, I think.

EDIT: For Drk, 2Xguillotine with Triton/Death+1 is better than 200TP Spiral Hell (with martial), this is assuming your gear doesn't suck (You have haubegeon, 2 snipers etc)