For the THFs out there

[Sugami]

I was a cheapass NIN and I didn't have much issue with hate, I'd just spam Ni spells. Guess that's where all my money went, whereas most NINs these days (40+) will have the Emperor/Empress Pin, Kote, Fuma and SH but refuse to use elemental ninjutsu
I only got into trouble when up against IT++s and there'd rarely be anyone to help me out so poor lil me get acused of being a bad NIN 'cause 7 shadows don't last long against a fast attacking IT++ mob with Double Attack and I quit

Anyways I digress... when you're in a 65+ SC party (not like that'll happen often these days) that's when a PLD doesn't want too much hate. Mistral Axe, Wheeling Thrust or Arching Arrow/Heavy Shot just won't pull hate off a PLD who's going out to get as much hate as possible. Not a major problem of such just need to arrange to SC at the start of the fight but the really good PLD can lower their hate so it would be possible to pull hate from them with a weapon skill.

[Kintrra]

As a tank, I realize there's a line of hate that I need to hold for someone to pull hate if they need to. If I need a higher line of hate or a lower one, I adjust.

Please go into this further.

As RNG/WAR I know about hate lines, and I carefully adjust. Face it, Nocht gear is tissue paper with Racc.

But as my Elvaan PLD, I want all the hate. No one else needs it. And there is this wonderfull feeling when you KNOW the mob is focused on you alone no mater what the fool BLM does.

Am I doing something wrong? When does someone else need hate?

Mind you I have never played NIN in a party. I have a low opinion of the vast majority of Blink Tanks and stand in awe of a few. I refuse to fall in that great majority and plan to solo or DD NIN to 37 someday.

Well, back when I was leveling PLD at least, there was a certain line of hate I needed to pull a lot of times, specifically so non-THF mains could SATA their WSs. Usually because whoever was opening the SC couldn't turn the mob, and pretty much killed the second DD's damage output due to loss of hate. So yeah, was necessary to ride the line at a certain point a lot.

As to NIN tanking without a THF, I've done it 3/4 of my NIN career, and I'm at 70. A lot of times I've had to back off of my hate line as NIN so the DDs can pull hate for an SATA SC. A good Ninja, which I'm proud to lay claim to being if anything other people have told me is correct, can put out enough hate to keep it as long as necessary. Unfortunately, once you hit about 69, this idea pretty much goes to crap as most WAR/NINs can now throw out 600+ Rampages against the current favorite mobs for leveling (ToAU areas), while your Blade: Jin, even pimped out with O-hat, Hauby, Coral Earrings, STR+ rings, and all that, will still only put out about 500 tops, and about 350 average. This is the point where Haste+ gear starts becoming a necessity to put out hits fast enough to make a difference.

[Okuza]

Haste+ gear starts becoming a necessity to put out hits fast enough to make a difference

IMHO, Haste gear is for tanking -- any dps improvement is entirely incidental to that. Lower blink recast helps a TON when tanking harder things. There are hardly any low-level haste items, too -- just the swift&speed belts -- not enough make that much difference. If you want better dps, usually at those levels it's better to pile on more +acc and +atk.

Blade: Jin, even pimped out with O-hat, Hauby, Coral Earrings, STR+ rings, and all that, will still only put out about 500 tops, and about 350 average.

Hmm. I do about 400-600 average on Jin, with peaks up to 1000. Uh, that's 75 with full merits, but there's still a couple of gear slots that are far less than ideal for Jin. I dun really remember what I was doing at 60 when I first got it. I do remember being terribly unimpressed with Jin at the time.

[Kintrra]

Hmm. I do about 400-600 average on Jin, with peaks up to 1000. Uh, that's 75 with full merits, but there's still a couple of gear slots that are far less than ideal for Jin. I dun really remember what I was doing at 60 when I first got it. I do remember being terribly unimpressed with Jin at the time.

Yeah, I know NIN75s with the uber-gear can slam out some vicious Jin's, but I was referring to around my current level. My Jin's are just now starting to get into the "whoa" range.

[Okuza]

I know NIN75s with the uber-gear can slam out some vicious Jin's

If you saw my gear, you wouldn't say that; you'd probably snicker.

It's really nothing very special. I'm missing LOTS of stuff. Still need dusk hands and swift belt for speed build. You're right about haste being very nice for dps; I just think it's even nicer for recast timing. No sky gear at all. My ws set is just odds and ends to shift to up STR/dex modifiers a bit. I do have the sea gorget, but my tests on that didn't show a big increase in WS size, just a large decrease in variance; ie. no more little numbers.

The best gear option for DPS is, of course, to equip a BRD. Too bad AH is usually sold out of BRDs. I could use a stack or two of HQ BRD+1s.

--

BTW, IMHO, the real boost for WS comes a lot more from starting to fight things that are DC/VT rather than from gear or merits. For instance, I tanked some Yovra the other day on NIN. The "little" ones are 82, which I think is about VT'ish. My jins hit for right in the 500-600 range. The big ones are 87, which is IT++. My jins were around 300 on that.

[Sugami]

I do have the sea gorget, but my tests on that didn't show a big increase in WS size, just a large decrease in variance; ie. no more little numbers.

You probably already know this but those little numbers are when you miss one or two hits. Sea gorgets increase accuracy and attack for WS with the corresponding elements, I'm guessing the accuracy boost is a lot more noticable than the attack boost.

I don't need to mention how broken single handed weapon damage is and it really shows on anything that isn't IT. Jin's 3-hits with chance to critical with more TP and of course there's the chance Double Attack triggers. It's the same formula for Rampage just has 2 less hits and a higher multiplier for the first hit.

At 75 I've seen NINs who fail to get below 500 on each Jin, sometimes over 1000 too but last I played with a 71/72 NIN his Jins were averaging 300. 75 makes everything better apparently

[Okuza]

Sea gorgets increase accuracy and attack for WS with the corresponding elements, I'm guessing the accuracy boost is a lot more noticable than the attack boost.

A lot of testing has been done on these elsewhere. What I read was that only the first hit of a multiple-hit WS is effected by the gorget. I read some comparisons between the sea gorgets and sea torques (+7 weapon skill). The findings all seem to show that the gorgets are better even for multi-hit WS, though only by a very tiny bit.

So, my guess is that the sea gorget is effectively +10 skill (+10 acc&atk). Personally, if I ever get a torque, I'm pitching the gorget into storage. The difference is almost unmeasurably tiny and my inventory is already 60/60 when playing NIN. Any item that reduces inventory falls into the amazingly nice category. ^~

[Eviticus]

Love Torque ftw.

[Sugami]

I know a lot of DRGs that swear by theirs, say it allows them to land all 5 hits of Penta Thrust with little accuracy gear on and Penta is notoriously inaccurate

[Darkmattre]

not sure if it's mentioned yet... but there are times where for some reason, a bard will take the trick attack even though they're standing beside the mob and the thief is either in front or behind.

In my experience though, tanks know not to move around when there's a thf, and if the bard runs in front of the tank, that's their problem, lol. Its funny to see it happen when the skillchain has started (thf usually closes) so it's obvious the thf is looking to SATA, and still the bard runs in front.

[Tinacat]

a bard will take the trick attack even though they're standing beside the mob and the thief is either in front or behind.

That bug was suppose to be taken care of like over a year ago.

[Okuza]

Actually, it's a relic of the old fuidama behavior. Anyone that played THF near release and learned it can still sort of do a fuidama. The way it worked was that whoever the thf was facing would get the trick agro -- as long as that person was closer to critter than thf. The person did NOT need to be between thf and critter. Also, back then the sneak-angle was about 220 degrees. As long as the critter couldn't see you, you could land a sneak from almost in front of it. Hmm, ascii art might fail here:

Tank> <critter
...................
..............<thf SATA critter, but points at tank

These days you can't point at someone on the other side of the critter and still have trick attack work. BUT, you can still point at someone off to the side/behind. Try it sometime -- the person you face gets the agro, not the person directly in the line of attack. Sometimes I do it for fun in a skill-up party to someone that is obviously trying to avoid SATA just to watch them jump. "Omg, I thought they fixed that bug. You weren't even in front of me!"