New SMN changes

Kintrra · Post by **Kintrra** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 1:57 am

I'm just curious on anyone else's thoughts on this matter. Since SE announced that they're going to be changing the way Summoner's Blood Pacts work, I've actually not heard a peep about it, which surprises me.

So is the idea of splitting up offensive and defensive Blood Pacts not really seem all that great to most SMNs, or is it that I've just somehow completely missed the buzz over it?

Eviticus · Post by **Eviticus** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 5:42 am

Well, despite the fact my Smn is 11, I have read alot on Summoners. For a while I was seriously interested in Smn, and that was after I lost my broad band. So all I could do was read threads. So, here's my thinking on this subject.

Them spliting up the blood pacts is huge, and there was a bit of buzz about it...but only in the Smn community. No one else batted an eye. Now, normally, there's about a hundred BP's a Smn has by the end of the game. But they can only use one per cycle, and it's usually a damage BP or something. Now, they can throw out a buff too. Also, the BP's have an option to be strengthened. Woot.

This is really going to affect Smn the higher level you are. At my level with Garuda and Carby....oh yay, whee, I can do Poison Nails -and- Shining Ruby....hey...where'd my mp go?

Pheonixhawk · Post by **Pheonixhawk** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 6:32 am

I had always thought Smn would be an awesome job to play, until I realized that people don't want you to fight with your avatar's. They just want you to do a quick summon, a buff, and then release it. I always thought fighting that way as a summoner was retarded. But then again, give to the players to make you one super sized healer with a larger MP pool...

Eviticus · Post by **Eviticus** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 7:09 am

Well, I can see why you'd want to be a Smn who has their avatar Melee. But like alot of things in this game....just because it can be done, does not mean it should be done. *Pulls down a white screen and starts of the old movie projector.* Lesson time!

*Points to FFIV and FF:Tactics. Images of the Summoners from those games appear.* Summoners in FF games have always been a 'Cast, BP, Release' based magic, it's just that we never thought of it as that way before. Rydia casts Summons which rip through the opposing side. And in FFT, Summons are massive AoE's.

What I mean to say is in past cases of Summoners, the Avatar appeared, did it's mojo, and poofed. Well, now that in FFXI we have a real time combat system, there are a few things they have to change. You can summon your avatar and have them do all kinds of nifty stuff. But true to their history, the most effective way to use your avatar is 'Cast, BP, Release'. And since Smn's are so MP heavy, the good Smn will make use of their /Whm sub and MP pool inbetween BP's.

Nobodyreal · Post by **Nobodyreal** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 7:42 am

Eviticus wrote:Summoners in FF games have always been a 'Cast, BP, Release' based magic, it's just that we never thought of it as that way before.

I'm told that in FFX the summons came in and replaced the summoner in the party, doing melee and special attacks just like everyone else.

SE has said that they want people to be able to keep the avatars out and melee with them instead of summon, BP, release. Several bloodpacts are boosted by avatar TP for that very reason.

The biggest reason to not melee with avatars in FFXI is that the perpetuation cost is just too high. If it was cut back a bit, not even a whole lot, avatar melee would be a lot more popular because it would be worthwhile to keep the avatar out between pacts.

The attack/defense BP split is a good step toward this, because it means the avatar isn't just out and sucking MP for a minute at a time between pacts. 30 seconds is still a long time, but it's a big step.

(and the elemental spirits would be overpriced at half their current perp cost. But that's a different topic)

Eviticus · Post by **Eviticus** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 7:55 am

Well, yeah, but we all know how well SE manages to match what they say and what they do. And you're right about the FFX summons. And, mostly, about the perp cost being the problem.

However, with the sheer amount of -perp items in the game, if they lowered the formula for perpetuation costs the people at End Game with 1337 gear would have nearly (If not entirely) free avatars. They could make things easier for Smn 1-70, and end up making Smn -totally broken- 71-75.

Post by **Shirai** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 12:15 pm

Warning! Wall of text.

I think it's time to put a few things in Summoner perspective.

As for the first, my opinion on the coming update:

Seperate Blood pact timers.
I couldn't have wished for a better idea, this brings a lot of pros with it and could definately change the way we play summoner in a lot of situations.
Throwing out a buff and right away being able to toss a DD move, this is very nice.
Also the implementation of making skill useful when capped and making it "easier" to cap with extra bonuses for having gear that raises your cap like buffs staying on longer is extremely useful in my opinion.
(I still have to see how much easier it is to skill up summoning magic, if they still have the same rate as standing hours outside a town summoning and releasing then we haven't really got an improvement in that section.)
Although not having skill capped not giving any penalties was a good descision.
Making summoning magic skill more useful then just for our spirit pacts makes buffs earlier thought useless now useful.
For example:
With a good set of + Summoning skill you could give buffs that last up to 3 minutes longer then they originally do.
Hastega used to be pretty useless because the effect only lasted one minute but now it can last up to 4 which is almost as long as the regular haste spell.
Crimson howl, a Warcry that lasts more then the 15 seconds it did? Now more then 1 minute?
Happy melee I'd say.
Ecliptic growl (Accuracy + Evasion Boost) lasting up to 6 minutes.
Put a bard or corsair next to it and your party might become really tough.
Hastega, Earthen Ward, Ecliptic Growl, Warcry and whatever buffs you might add together with the buffs of the Bard or Corsair.
If the party knows what it's doing you might not even need to cure that much.

I always feared that an update would destroy our soloing capabilities, but I couldn't have been more wrong.
This update also makes that a lot better.

The downside:
Perpetuation cost,
SE has said they would like summoners to keep out their Avatars longer.
With current perpetuation cost it's still not worth it to keep them out.
With my current gear my Celestial avatars and Diabolos guzzle up a 6 MP per tick and that is with HQ staves (-3), AF+1 feet (-1), Yinyang Robe (-1 from the refresh), Evoker's Ring (-1).
And I can down it one more when I get Nashira Gages (-1).
AFv2 Body and head can give an extra -3 each making Avatars completely free if the circumstances are right.
Body Day of the week, Head weather effect.
But to obtain such gear takes a long time and a lot of work to obtain and again most of the gear is from endgame activities.

Summoning Magic + items,
Only a few are buyable:
The summoning Torque (Lvl65)(+7) (BCNM60 drop)
The Summoning Earring (Lvl35)(+3) (ENM30 drop and extremely rare.)
And a few Austere/Penance items.(Level 50 Summoner JSE)
These items are quite expensive to obtain these days with the plans for making summoning skill useful except for maybe the Austere gear.

Now the Items that are "free" (Rare/ex).
Evoker's Ring. (Lvl71)(Quest) (+10) Obtainable by defeating all the avatars including Fenrir excluding Diabolos and choosing a specific item when you pick up your reward at the quest giver.
Mamaulabion near the auction house in Norg wil collect these and make you your evoker's ring the day after at JP midnight
http://ffxi.somepage.com/questdb/345

Evoker's Horn (Lvl60)(Quest)(+5) Your Artifact headpiece.
http://ffxi.somepage.com/questdb/345

Summoner's Bracers (Lvl72)(Relic Armor)(+10) Obtainable in Dynamis _ Bastok.

Astute Cape (Lvl73)(Quest/Drop)(+5) Obtainable by defeating Ix'aern (DRK) in sea, he has to drop a specific Vice that can be exchanged at an NPC in Tavnazian safehold, before that you have to finish another quest for sea obis/gorgets/earrings. (STILL 0/5 on those stupid Euvhi organs >.<;;;; )(Requires Sea Access)

Nashira Crackows (Lvl75)(BCNM/Quest)(+5) Obtainable by defeating Proto-Ultima in Limbus.
This BCNM is hard, extremely hard and the chance to get the piece to make the boots is rare.(Requires Sea Access)

Bahamut's Staff (Lvl75)(BCNM)(+5)(Avatar Perpetuation cost -3) Obtainable by defeating the second version of Bahamut.
This BCNM is stated to be the hardest BCNM ever, Against the Wyrmking Bahamut that spits out weaker versions of the Wyrms (Grand CoP Dragons) Vrtra, Jormungand and Tiamat to aid him.
You have one hour to beat him with 18 people.
Prerequirements:
You have to have completed CoP, defeated him on his first form, and need a Monarch orb that only drops from the uncapped Ouryu alliance fight.(Monarch Orb has a 100% droprate btw)
Next to that this drop is extremely rare.

As stated before most of the gear is only obtainable by endgame activities which isn't put away for everyone and needs a lot of time and patience to obtain.

Post by **Sugami** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 12:33 pm

If they make TP effect the offensive BPs more than it does atm that might be an insentive to keep the avatar out.

I thought the avatar replaced the whole party (for a while) in FFX but lets not talk about that game... ^^;;

I've been quite excited about this update, have quite a few SMN friends and they must be wetting themselves in anticipation. DD SMNs were nice before, can lay down some massive damage but in between they were doing nothing but the odd cure, now they can buff aswell which cerments their role as DD-support (originally intended).

If a SMN is forced into primary healing they probably won't be able to use both buffs and offensive BPs a lot as they'd probably need to use a lot of MP healing. But if they get bored, 'cause the NIN is too good or something, then they can use their free MP for a nice offensive BP ontop of buffs. Bit more variety and freedom is always a good thing.

Post by **Shirai** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 12:45 pm

Sugami wrote:If they make TP effect the offensive BPs more than it does atm that might be an insentive to keep the avatar out.

They have tried with the merit Blood pacts, however perpetuation cost still is a big issue when it comes to keeping Avatars out to melee.
I do have some impressive magic bursts with them when I keep it out to TP up and MB on a Skillchain (see Signature for the MB on Kirin with only 35 TP but throw in the Physical BP against Vrtra next to it with 0 TP.) but still it's not worth the MP used over TP gained for it since the Blood pact itself uses about 180MP.
That with 6MP per tick added up is a lot when a physical Blood pact can do about 75% of that damage up to even more damage occasionally and doesn't need TP to be useful.
I can summon, whack a mob for 600 to 1k+ damage and release with less then 200 MP used.

If our Physical BP's would require TP to do damage our job would be ruined for sure.

Post by **Alya Mizar (Tsybil)** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 4:14 pm

Vaguely related to the topic:

Shirai, I don't know if you have discovered this yet, but when atempting to raise Summoning skill call only those avatars and spirits related to the day. Carby too if you like.

For those kitties who don't know their elements, this means, on Earthday call Earth, Wind, and Lightning, Titan, Garuda, and, Ramuh.

Skillups come about three times faster than just running down the whole list.

Personally, I have always considered raising Summoning skill to be a lot like homework. Better graphics, not as interesting, not as borring as some, never exciting or fun.

Post by **Shirai** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 5:59 pm

Tsybil wrote:Vaguely related to the topic:

Shirai, I don't know if you have discovered this yet, but when atempting to raise Summoning skill call only those avatars and spirits related to the day. Carby too if you like.

For those kitties who don't know their elements, this means, on Earthday call Earth, Wind, and Lightning, Titan, Garuda, and, Ramuh.

Skillups come about three times faster than just running down the whole list.

Personally, I have always considered raising Summoning skill to be a lot like homework. Better graphics, not as interesting, not as borring as some, never exciting or fun.

I've read several topics testing this theory, people went really far to test this and it was found untrue. (Including by myself).
As for people going far to test it I'll give a few examples:
Theory: Summoning in high/low level zones give faster skill ups
After extensive testing: found false, it is still as random as getting skill ups besides the mog house in Al'Zhabi or in Rolanberry fields.
Tested in sky, Sea, Uleguerand range, Promyvion entrances, Apollyon, Temenos, outside the main city zones nearly everywhere.

Theory: Summoning avatars of the element of the day or weather effect give faster skill ups
After extensive testing (by myself also): Found false
I've tested it by dedicating an entire MP pool in Garuda/AirSpirit on Windsday.
Another on Titan/EarthSpirit to test if it works on the avatar on it's weak day/weather.
Another on Shiva/IceSpirit to see the effects on the avatars strong to the element day/weather.
Another on regular summoning.
I've tested it several times and got some skill ups but no more then regular summoning where I also get more skill ups on the avatars/spirits that have no relation with the day/weather.

Summoning Magic skill ups are completely random at lower levels you also get faster skill up then on high levels.

Okuza · Post by **Okuza** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 7:51 pm

You might want to test Full-Moon for skill up rate. After lots of skilling various things over time, I've noticed that Full Moon seems to improve all skill rates (craft, weapon, magic, everything). I don't have any data to back this up; it's just a hunch at this point.

Post by **Shirai** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 10:03 pm

Okuza wrote:You might want to test Full-Moon for skill up rate. After lots of skilling various things over time, I've noticed that Full Moon seems to improve all skill rates (craft, weapon, magic, everything). I don't have any data to back this up; it's just a hunch at this point.

Also tried full moon, new moon. I've tried every theory on every summoner board to see if anything makes a difference.
Order of summoning avatars/spirits, zones, day/weather, just avatars, just spirits, a mix of them.
Unfortunately I still have to say about it that it's either a really slow process or the biggest kept secret next to Treasure Hunter.
All I know is the higher your level, the harder it is to cap your skill.

The main reasons I have a considerably high skill is due to my soloing career as I still refuse to main heal in exp parties unless my buffer gets extremely low, hehe.

I've decided to just let it skill up by itself instead of standing in an outside zone and summoning/releasing unless I'm truely bored or waiting for something.
Although I'd like to cap it now before the update to test how much difference Skill+ items will make and how many items/merits I would need to cap the +3 minutes on the buffs.

Keavy · Post by **Keavy** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 11:45 pm

The only thing that I know of that greatly affects magic skillups is using Healing Magic offensively.

Other than that...its just random.

Post by **Leane** » Tue Oct 17, 2006 12:37 am

Keavy wrote:The only thing that I know of that greatly affects magic skillups is using Healing Magic offensively.

why am I just hearing of this now?

Post by **Alya Mizar (Tsybil)** » Tue Oct 17, 2006 2:04 am

Leane wrote:
Keavy wrote:The only thing that I know of that greatly affects magic skillups is using Healing Magic offensively.
why am I just hearing of this now?

No idea. I have known forever that Curing the Undead will lead to faster Healing skillups. My Healing skill still suks though. Thank the Goddess for the soft caps on Cure - Cure IV.

Shirai wrote:I've read several topics testing this theory, people went really far to test this and it was found untrue. (Including by myself).

at lower levels you also get faster skill up then on high levels.

Maybe it works for me because of my low level as SMN and my even lower Sumoning skill. But for me, it does work.

Post by **Shirai** » Tue Oct 17, 2006 7:09 am

Tsybil wrote:
Leane wrote:
Keavy wrote:The only thing that I know of that greatly affects magic skillups is using Healing Magic offensively.
why am I just hearing of this now?
No idea. I have known forever that Curing the Undead will lead to faster Healing skillups. My Healing skill still suks though. Thank the Goddess for the soft caps on Cure - Cure IV.

I agree with this, offensive usage of spells indeed give better skillups, like indeed tossing cures on higher level undead.
Also at Artifact levels I found flash a real nice spell to skill up your divine magic and a real MP saver.

Tsybil wrote:
Shirai wrote:I've read several topics testing this theory, people went really far to test this and it was found untrue. (Including by myself).

at lower levels you also get faster skill up then on high levels.
Maybe it works for me because of my low level as SMN and my even lower Sumoning skill. But for me, it does work.

Good to hear, although in a few levels your summoning maic skill will rise with 5 skill levels per level making skilling it up even a tad harder.
Also closer to cap it becomes even more random.

I've always had skill near cap until late 30's where it started to take really long to get skil ups

Post by **Shirai** » Tue Oct 17, 2006 6:38 pm

Sorry for the double post but um..

>.>
<.<

Update tomorrow!!!

\o\\o//o/

/dance /joy /cheer /hurray

Pheonixhawk · Post by **Pheonixhawk** » Tue Oct 17, 2006 11:26 pm

So all jobs get thier update tommorow?

Okuza · Post by **Okuza** » Wed Oct 18, 2006 2:23 am

My guess would be no for all jobs. I bet it will update things for the halloween event and maybe do the job changes that were announced. I have a suspicion that some changes will be made to the client to make various cheats harder, but that 2-3 days after the patch, the cheating crowd will have new cheats working. SE will announce even more RMT banned, but when you zone into sky, you'll still be greated by the same folks as before, "Herro! Yankee buy Autumnstone! Onry 20,000,000 gils. Visa/MC accepted: http:gilsrus.ige.com"

ScarlettPheonix · Post by **ScarlettPheonix** » Wed Oct 18, 2006 2:35 am

No, just the job changes they've already announced~ SAM, SMN, DRK, DRG and R. Attk.

Pheonixhawk · Post by **Pheonixhawk** » Wed Oct 18, 2006 4:00 am

I may play smn or blu. Can't decide witch is better. But I do wan't to play an advanced mage job. Maybe ill go smn with these new updates.

Post by **Shirai** » Wed Oct 18, 2006 11:00 am

Okuza wrote:My guess would be no for all jobs. I bet it will update things for the halloween event and maybe do the job changes that were announced. I have a suspicion that some changes will be made to the client to make various cheats harder, but that 2-3 days after the patch, the cheating crowd will have new cheats working. SE will announce even more RMT banned, but when you zone into sky, you'll still be greated by the same folks as before, "Herro! Yankee buy Autumnstone! Onry 20,000,000 gils. Visa/MC accepted: http:gilsrus.ige.com"

At Titan the recently started:

Herro engrish spaeking preson.
Byakko's Haidate, Kirin's Osode, Abjration do you need it?
Pay good price, we get dolla from boss.
We kill all NM so nobody get stones but us.

Post by **Sugami** » Wed Oct 18, 2006 12:21 pm

Thank God I don't bother with Sky

"Yes we claim NM. Buy many geisha with money. ROR"

Post by **Alya Mizar (Tsybil)** » Wed Oct 18, 2006 1:56 pm

Pheonixhawk wrote:I may play smn or blu. Can't decide witch is better. But I do wan't to play an advanced mage job. Maybe ill go smn with these new updates.

BLU is a true Sword Mage. The hard part of the job is keeping both TP and MPs up. The frustrating part of the job is learning the spells.

The frustrating part of the SMN job is that most see you as a gimped WHM. You will be utilized in parties as main healer with an occasional buff. I do hope that the update changes this, but somehow I dobut it.

Which is better all depends on you.

Post by **Shirai** » Wed Oct 18, 2006 4:41 pm

Tsybil wrote: The frustrating part of the SMN job is that most see you as a gimped WHM. You will be utilized in parties as main healer with an occasional buff. I do hope that the update changes this, but somehow I dobut it.

If we're no longer gonna be used as healers, I also doubt it but:
With the implementation for usefulness of summoning magic skill things can change a lot in the way we are gonna main heal.
More a support role then actual healing.
Throughout the career summoner gets several Blood pacts useful to aid the party in several ways.
Unfortunately at lower levels not as much as on higher levels, but still some useful.

As for the bonuses you get for having skill higher then your skill cap, I'm seriousy gonna put that to the test now that I capped my summoning magic skill.
As in how long a buff stays on at normal skill cap, how long they stay on at higher then normal up to how much I would need to have before it reaches the 180 seconds extention to the regular duration.
Is it random? Does it add a standard amount extra time per level of skill above cap?
Those are still questions that need to be answered, also as for how much summoning magic above cap will influence the avatar's already extremely random accuracy.

Other tests that need to be run are:
Will the day of the week/weather pattern influence on how strong and accurate the avatars are gonna be?
How much effect will avatar Ward Blood pacts (Party Buffs and Monster Debuffs) have on their Rage Blood pacts (Offensive)?
(Examples: Ifrit's Crimson Howl (Warcry) on Flaming Crush, Diabolos' Dream Shroud on Nether Blast, Fenrir's Ecliptic Howl and Growl on Eclipse Bite.)

Also not only me has to test it because I can only test these things on my own level (75).
Lower level Summoners will have to do a lot of testing themselves as well since there might be a huge difference between how much + skill would be needed per set of levels.

I'll also be writing a Summoner's guide soon which I planned for a long time but now wit the update coming I think the way of playing summoner will change a lot.

Tianshii · Post by **Tianshii** » Wed Oct 18, 2006 9:29 pm

i just read all the posts here and my head hurts a little, but I'm gonna go ahead an put in my 2 cents...

For me personally, I haven't gotten into the buzz of the BP changes ... I read about them, thought "Okay, I'll see how that works out for me".
I don't get myself worked up over patches/job changes .. well except when RMT get banned, then it's dance of joy time!

I've been a summoner at heart since I began the game.
I do like the changes & I'm curious to see how my play style might change. I've been in situations where I am main healer... I try to do a bit of everything. Toss out stoneskin...blink..whatever.
I tend to ask if anyone has requests & try to accomodate them

Every party I'm in, I do something a bit different. Every party IS different...be it players/jobs/mobs. So, I try to talor what I do to best support the party, alliance, whatever.
That said, this change to BP is pretty cool.
I have yinyang robe and af2 hands/feet/pants... Plus, I'm at a level in cooking where I can crank out my own mulsum.
So, if I'm in need of a quick hit of MP...I have options of things I can have with me to make mp helping dirinks. (juice/meds)
This way, if I want or need to have my avatar out more, I can do it without slowing down the pace (hopefully).

As far as summoning skill... I'm glad it actually does something now

What sucks is I haven't been trying too hard to level it

because it had seemed it didn't matter. I've been skilling it up lately when camping or waiting on exp or just not sure what to do with mself...
The only thing I have found to "speed" up skilling is duo/soloing... all of a sudden you see your skill went up

So, it seems faster *teehee*

It does seem to me that these BP changes would more benefit the highler level summoner, but I have been 75 for some time and admit, I have lost touch with what it's like to be baby again.
Helping out lsmates with CoP missions would surly remind me though!!!

Finally, if SE made it so the avatars didn't cost but like 1mp per tic... I dunno, that might make us too powerful >.> & prime targets for a nasty SE nerf later down the road

Post by **Shirai** » Thu Oct 19, 2006 4:32 pm

Well some testing got done.

Blood pact: Ward.
Depending on how high your summoning magic skill is above cap the duration of the Blood pact is also prolonged.
I have found a very plausible calculation that comes very close to my own experience on Hastega at least.

There are a few other buffs where this formula didn't really work out but as SE said it would be different per Blood pact.

Some useful things I did notice:
Dream Shroud on Nether blast adds about 50 extra damage to the BP when it lands unresisted.

Ecliptic Howl on Fenrir gave a real decent accuracy bonus when I used Eclipse Bite on VT Aura statues.
I've also tested a few without the buff.

Summoning Magic Skill 269+25 (Summoning Torque replaced for Sacrifice Torque during the Physical Blood pacts.)
With Howl:
#1 609 Damage
#2 469
#3 469
#4 507
#5 498

Without Howl:
#1 456
#2 102
#3 209
#4 503
#5 432

Ifrit's Crimson Howl didn't seem to have too much effect on Flaming Crush.