Defining our economic problems.

[angelstar107]

Me thinks I did a bad job at explain. Lemme try this again.

I used the Scorpion Harness as an example. When I started playing FFXI 3 years ago, Scorpion Harness was the most expensive item in the game at 1.4M gil (Asura). To me, that price seems fair. The whole gil cap just says this.

An item can be bought/sold from an NPC at some price which we shall call X. A player wishes to sell this item on the AH for a higher price, Y. We'll call the price Difference Z. Now, what this means is that the item itself is really only worth X, but you gain Y, with a profit of Z.

Wow, that was more confusing than I wanted >> lets try looking at it this way.

Let's say Scorpion Harness came down to 5M gil (as if...). 10% of 5M is 500,000 Gil. If the AH is capped at 10% of it's NORMAL (Double or triple the merchant SELL price, not buying from them, selling to them), then the CAPPED AH Price is 5.5M. It can not exceed that. So now the price becomes fixed. So what about the materials, right?

All items in the game that are AH sellable are given a value. This value is a fair amount (not some 900k for 1 piece of material to make a piece of lvl 21 armor crap, and I'm just using this as a fantasized idea), which can not be sold for more than + or - 10% of the value of the item. This forms a perfect, stable economy, with all the items ranging from 90-110% of their value ONLY!

When the AH is capped, no money can be extorted. the value of the gil is restored. So what about Real Money Trading? Well, with a capped AH, item prices aren't skyrocketting anymore, and are kept within farmable limits. Though it doesn't completely eliminate Real Money Trade, it deals it a fantastic blow, since most gilsellers farm items (Leaping Boots, Peacock Charm) that go for an insane amount of money, sell them, THEN sell the reward money to people who go back and buy the item again.

No matter how you try to look at it, no matter what the item, the prices, currently, are unfairly set. Further, they will continue to be so until one of 4 things happen: 1. the AH dies completely. 2. the Programmers at SE lose it with the complaints about the AH and Economy and cap the prices on items. 3. Everyone quits and FFXI dies. or 4. There is a server migration, in which all the gil sellers and corrupt assholes run away to a clean, new server and trash that one.


Face it folks, we don't have many options, and most of them suck. Capping the AH at + or - 10% value is the only way that has a beneficial effect in the end. A dead AH is beyond bad. FFXI dying is the worst thing that could happen, and the migration is only temperary relief. Capping is the only permenant relief we'll get, so I say let's go with it.

[JediKitsune]

This would only kinda work if NPC prices and AH prices were relative to each other as well, but that would mean NPC prices would have to be able to raise as well. Otherwise, items lose their value as more gil enters the economy.

The only real thing we can do is cross our fingers and hope that the prices settle down on their own.

[angelstar107]

Thinking as a high optimist isn't gonna fix the economy. I also never said anything about the AH prices having to be equal to the vender prices. if I did, then I appologize for being confusing.

If all items are capped around a set, fair price, which the programmers can decide based off of records they keep, then you still have economic growth. As for the excess gil entering the economy... there are ways of eliminating that as well, but SE has to figure that out for themselves.

[JediKitsune]

The thing is that SE wants a player-based economy. The programmers pretty much decided they'd never interfere in such a way as deciding prices of things other than what the NPCs sell. If they did, we might as well all start wearing the hammer and sickle on our RSE.

Oh, and for the record, I hate the inflation as much anyone else. I doubt I'll ever be able to really afford what I want, but I realize why that is and what we can do, which is really only, well... don't buy stuff at the inflated prices and hope others get tired of the prices too.

[Jae]

Prices that you buy.. goes up...
Also the prices that you sell goes up... which equal out the somewhat from old economy...
I wouldnt say its entirely gil seller's fault..

From the way I see.. its mostly *legit* or *not legit* player fault... by buying stuff even when its been overpriced.

Also.. as you see... the game been up for few years now...
people been joining.. quitting game... adds money to economy by selling stuff @ npc... slowly but amazingly large amount now.. after all these years added.

And so many lv75s out there now... needing of better equipments... they buy stuff @ whatever price...

It would be very hard to obtain stuff you want once you start FFXI.. without getting a help.. but it is true that once you hit jackpot(nm,bcnm drop)... would make you able to buy anything..

From what I notice.. not sure about lower level... I was lucky enough.. because of inflation.. i could able to make 40mil out of some items.. able to buy all the things I want for my ranger & ninja... which equals out since I sell stuff at current price..

I just hope that people is not dumb enough to keep buying overpriced stuff =/

[Tivia]

Me thinks I did a bad job at explain. Lemme try this again.

I used the Scorpion Harness as an example. When I started playing FFXI 3 years ago, Scorpion Harness was the most expensive item in the game at 1.4M gil (Asura). To me, that price seems fair. The whole gil cap just says this.

An item can be bought/sold from an NPC at some price which we shall call X. A player wishes to sell this item on the AH for a higher price, Y. We'll call the price Difference Z. Now, what this means is that the item itself is really only worth X, but you gain Y, with a profit of Z.

Wow, that was more confusing than I wanted >> lets try looking at it this way.

Let's say Scorpion Harness came down to 5M gil (as if...). 10% of 5M is 500,000 Gil. If the AH is capped at 10% of it's NORMAL (Double or triple the merchant SELL price, not buying from them, selling to them), then the CAPPED AH Price is 5.5M. It can not exceed that. So now the price becomes fixed. So what about the materials, right?

All items in the game that are AH sellable are given a value. This value is a fair amount (not some 900k for 1 piece of material to make a piece of lvl 21 armor crap, and I'm just using this as a fantasized idea), which can not be sold for more than + or - 10% of the value of the item. This forms a perfect, stable economy, with all the items ranging from 90-110% of their value ONLY!

When the AH is capped, no money can be extorted. the value of the gil is restored. So what about Real Money Trading? Well, with a capped AH, item prices aren't skyrocketting anymore, and are kept within farmable limits. Though it doesn't completely eliminate Real Money Trade, it deals it a fantastic blow, since most gilsellers farm items (Leaping Boots, Peacock Charm) that go for an insane amount of money, sell them, THEN sell the reward money to people who go back and buy the item again.

No matter how you try to look at it, no matter what the item, the prices, currently, are unfairly set. Further, they will continue to be so until one of 4 things happen: 1. the AH dies completely. 2. the Programmers at SE lose it with the complaints about the AH and Economy and cap the prices on items. 3. Everyone quits and FFXI dies. or 4. There is a server migration, in which all the gil sellers and corrupt assholes run away to a clean, new server and trash that one.


Face it folks, we don't have many options, and most of them suck. Capping the AH at + or - 10% value is the only way that has a beneficial effect in the end. A dead AH is beyond bad. FFXI dying is the worst thing that could happen, and the migration is only temperary relief. Capping is the only permenant relief we'll get, so I say let's go with it.

This idea is a bandaid not a fix, and it fails to account for a plethora of issues. In short this is frankly the worst thing you could consider doing on a "suppossedly" Free open economy. I do not have time ti explain right now as I have a meeting. however I will come back later and go more in depth.

[Crispleaf]

The idea I've heard, which kind of makes sense, is to take your gil and buy up Ancient Currency (that is, the money that drops from Dynamis and Limbus).

Ancient Currency doesn't seem to lose its value. Its cost in gil only goes up when the rest of the prices spiral upwards. And when you're ready to buy something, sell off your Ancient Currency for gil and make the purchase.

This way, while you're saving for something, and prices increase, you haven't lost the value that your gil used to have before you could buy the item you wanted.

[Losfuin]

The idea I've heard, which kind of makes sense, is to take your gil and buy up Ancient Currency (that is, the money that drops from Dynamis and Limbus).

Ancient Currency doesn't seem to lose its value. Its cost in gil only goes up when the rest of the prices spiral upwards. And when you're ready to buy something, sell off your Ancient Currency for gil and make the purchase.

This way, while you're saving for something, and prices increase, you haven't lost the value that your gil used to have before you could buy the item you wanted.

This is a similar idea to what I'm doing. Not only do I love crafting, but it's an investment - up until level 60, once I have that 0.1 skill-up, NO ONE and nothing can take it off me, nor will I ever suddenly stop being able to craft an item. Other people with more gil than I have talked of buying JSE and rare, tradable equips, not becuase they want or need them, but because they are an investment.

[Alya Mizar (Tsybil)]

Give NPC merchants more valuable goods. NPCs could be a huge gilsink.

Imagine if you will an NPC that will sell you a scorp harness for say... 6m....

... but in the case of something like a Scorpion Harness that's crafted, it would ruin those who craft it.

I can imagine people buying NPC out and selling them at higher prices in either bazaar or AH depending on location. It's exactly like what a lot of guild campers do.

I used to say the Carpenter's Guild salesroom was camped like Lizzy, today with the Rare/EX Bounding Boots the Carpenter's Guild salesroom is far more popular. One stack of Arrowwood lumber at under 10 Gil a piece..... Imagine the pack of buybots lining up for a 6 M Scorpy Harness.

Its simple, there is too much Gil around. We need another Gil sink and a BIG one. NPC shops and travel are Gil sinks, but the Guild points are not. GPs will remove Gil if the Craftsman buys items from NPCs, or remove value if the Craftsman buys at the AH or crafts the GP item.

I want the Gold Saucer. With games that you buy into for Gil, but pay off only in Saucer Points, redemable for Uber NQ items that are normaly crafted. Like... a Scorpy or Vermy. Items that could be adjusted weekly and server by server. As well as being a Gil sink, the Gold Saucer would be a time sink. It could feature Choco breeding and racing, talk about time and Gil sinks.... Of course a racing Chocobo is not an animal that could be ridden just anywhere... or maybe it could if it was never to be raced again. People would breed them if they could have a unique colored mount, even if it got tired faster than the rent-a-birds.

[Prrsha]

More items like that lace subligar that costs 4 mil that you can buy from a NPC is needed. You can desynth it into a 6+ mil item but there is also a 50% chance of failure and you lose the item. Such high risk/high profit items are exactly what is needed to remove the huge gil bloat from the game.

[Sheala]

Jae wrote:

I just hope that people is not dumb enough to keep buying overpriced stuff =/

I know my brother was leveling his Tarutaru white mage over the break and he was nearing level 56. At 56, white mages can learn "Raise II". I know Prrsha stated in game that you can buy "Raise II" off of the Conquest NPC, but for some reason my brother was unable to at the time. He wanted to purchase the scroll of the auction house for 160,000 gil, but had to finally settle for a 200,000 gil price. Later last week "Raise II" went up to 500,000 gil. So in one sense my brother over paid by 40k. In another view, my brother saved 300k. This trend has been going on for over the past year. It has just gotten more extreme lately.

Let's face it the ecomomy is messed up and SE will do little if anything about it. Some players are trying to do things in game to fix it, but no progress has been made. If my brother had not purchased the scroll and simply waited for the economy to fix itself, he would have had to pay 500,000 gil for "Raise II". What we need to do as players is figure out what to craft and/or farm and where to sell it. We need to start taking advantage of the gil sellers and gil buyers instead of being squashed economically by them. Losfuin is a good example. He got Goldsmithing up past 50. Now Los can make things like rings and rings +1 to sell. This will re-coop his cost in getting to level 50 and he made enough profit to afford the chainmail +1 set (and make me a little jealous in the process ) It is a good display of turning this sour lemon economy into sweet lemonade for a legit player.

[Losfuin]

Losfuin is a good example. He got Goldsmithing up past 50. Now Los can make things like rings and rings +1 to sell. This will re-coop his cost in getting to level 50 and he made enough profit to afford the chainmail +1 set (and make me a little jealous in the process )

Hehe, I'll be lucky if rings ever bring me any money; I will only HQ the lvl 14 ones 10% of the time, and can't make the lvl 34 ones yet. Someone with Goldsmithing over 80 will HQ 50% of lvl 14 rings, and 25% of lvl 34 ones. As such, they can afford to "dump" NQ rings by selling them at a loss, because their higher HQ rate still brings in money. So, for someone at my Goldsmithing level (48+1), HQ jewlery isn't a viable money-maker, as I don't HQ enough to cover the losses of NQ rings and earrings.
Consumables is where the money is at, and how I levelled Goldsmithing as high as I have whilst almost always making profit on it. Consumables isn't just things like ingots, though - anything used in another synth is consumable. So, Silver Rings and Earrings are included in Goldsmithing consumables. For levelling Clothcraft to 60, I intend to make velvet gear, because it is used in Austere synthesis for high-end Leathercrafters, hence making Velvert equipment a consumable with a good level of demand.

Heed my words, kittens. Ingots, Ninja Tools, Cloth - all these will bring in gil. Skill-up off them if you can. Even if you can't sell them, odds are you'll use them yourself later. Right now, I'm hurting bad for wool cloth, because I didn't make enough when skilling-up, and instead took the option of Bird Fletchings.

[Sugami]

Problem with synthing is it only gets profitable at 90+ or at least reasonably profitable, crafting for an hour to make 10K profit is a bit pointless when you can mine/farm twice as much in the same time. Still I've known someone with 100+6 in Woodworking and still not make any money from it, relying on HQ is not the way to go

Read this
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/show ... hp?t=75915 I was reading into how Guild Wars economy was run and found this thread, it's quite informative and interesting They seem to have a similar problem but not as bloated as FFXI's but whereas a DRK/WAR/SAM/etc. really needs that hauby to be kickass, in Guild Wars there are cheap obtainable items that are almost as good as the ripoff items and performance difference would barely be noticed. Only difference being asthetics ^^;

[JediKitsune]

If it takes that long to make money in crafting, you're probably doing the wrong craft. I seem to be getting by alright with my measly 15 cooking making selbina butter and skilling up as I go. It's slow money, but it's money nonetheless.

[angeladark]

Jedi may have a point with the whole Golden Saucer idea. I mean, what was everyone's favorite area in FF7? More often than not, people will say it was the golden saucer. It was pretty much the crown jewel when it came to giving some spectacular cutsenes that really weren't related to the plot. But I digress. If there was some new area, a town that was much like the golden saucer of FF7, with games, rides, a gambling aspect, etc. Then you may start to see less and less gil in the game. Though it opens up a whole new can of worms with cheats and hacks and loopholes that people will take advantage of. But SE really needs to do something. Either that or we as players have to do something.

[Losfuin]

If it takes that long to make money in crafting, you're probably doing the wrong craft. I seem to be getting by alright with my measly 15 cooking making selbina butter and skilling up as I go. It's slow money, but it's money nonetheless.

Any experienced crafter will tell you that profitable skill-up synths are rare, especially below 60, because you're in competition with so many other crafters. Post-60, the number of crafters seriously falls away due to the "master points" system, meaning you can HQ more items others can't to the same rate, and can make more than others can't.

Cooking, alchemy, and woodwork are recommended as "newbie crafts" because they are cheap, make things at low levels that are in very high demand (arrows, silent oils, foods - a lvl 29 cook can crank out insect paste and live pretty well), and, especially cooking, offer consumable skill-up synths that are profitable because of their odd nature as being in high demand by non-crafters. Everyone eats, but once you have your Onxy Earring +1, you don't need to re-buy it everytime you equip it. However, that earring +1 will cost more initially than a stack of comparable foods.

It's also a question of extent. A 100+3 Cloth/Bone/Leather/Gold/Smithcrafter can make one or two items that will bring in millions of profit. In contract, a 100+3 cook will NEVER see that kind of gil in a single synth. Instead, their profit is more averaged out. With most crafts, th pay-off is at the end, or damn close to it.

[Alya Mizar (Tsybil)]

Any experienced crafter will tell you that profitable skill-up synths are rare, especially below 60.....

Sorrry, but I have made a profit in Goldsmithing all the way to level 48. It is not a fortune, but a profit over materials and crystals. Cooking is at a profit once I hit 6 or so. For my alts, Clothcraft has been profitable to 66 save for levels 4 - 11, Woodworking has been profitable to 59 save for 15 - low 20s somewhere, Alchemy mostly profitable to 32, Smithing up and down to 30, Bone and Leather mostly a loss to the teens.....

Cooking, alchemy, and woodwork are recommended as "newbie crafts" because they are cheap, make things at low levels that are in very high demand (arrows, silent oils, foods - a lvl 29 cook can crank out insect paste and live pretty well), and, especially cooking, offer consumable skill-up synths that are profitable because of their odd nature as being in high demand by non-crafters. Everyone eats, but once you have your Onxy Earring +1, you don't need to re-buy it everytime you equip it.

A friend has found a way to make Gil as a L 1 Goldsmith. She hunts and desynths Yagudo necklaces to Copper Ingots. Ingots, leather, lumber are all consumables. BTW, a L 20 cook can level on Insect paste and make a profit all the way to the L 29 cap.

It's also a question of extent. A 100+3 Cloth/Bone/Leather/Gold/Smithcrafter can make one or two items that will bring in millions of profit. In contract, a 100+3 cook will NEVER see that kind of gil in a single synth. Instead, their profit is more averaged out. With most crafts, the pay-off is at the end, or damn close to it.

If she can Farm Twincoons or Damascene Cloth, a L 68 Clothcrafter can make those million gil profit items. If a L 100 + Bonecrafter cannot farm V. Claws, he cannot make Scorpy Harnesses. The payoff is most of the way through a craft, the JACKPOT comes in past 60, maybe all the way at the end.

P. S. For some high demand cross synth items, you do not want to get to 100. It will prevent you from getting to the 30% HQ bracket. This requires you to be 30 levels over the cap for the item in all the crafts it takes.

[Sheala]

Pyrexia wrote:

Give NPC merchants more valuable goods. NPCs could be a huge gilsink.

Imagine if you will an NPC that will sell you a scorp harness for say... 6m. The NPC would have a limited inventory of SHs and they would be the same exact thing as a SH, none of this rare/ex stuff I have seen people propose on other sites. This could be done with a variety of high end items. It would keep prices decent on the AH, and take gil out of the economy.

JediKitsune wrote:

... but in the case of something like a Scorpion Harness that's crafted, it would ruin those who craft it.

I can imagine people buying NPC out and selling them at higher prices in either bazaar or AH depending on location. It's exactly like what a lot of guild campers do.

NPC merchants selling normal versions of high level items would not sevearly affect crafters. As Los already pointed out, High level crafters make rings to sell the HQ versions and dump the NQ version at or below cost to get rid of them. Since NPC merchants do not sell the Scorpion Harness +1 and the players want it, the crafters still make Scorpion Harnesses. Also, a some players snap up the reduce priced NQ gear because it is cheaper than buying them from a NPC merchant. This helps crafters re-coop some of the cost synthing all of those rings. For those who are force to buy from the merchants, their gil goes down SE gil blackhole. I think Pyrexia merits more consideration.

[Sugami]

If she can Farm Twincoons or Damascene Cloth, a L 68 Clothcrafter can make those million gil profit items. If a L 100 + Bonecrafter cannot farm V. Claws, he cannot make Scorpy Harnesses. The payoff is most of the way through a craft, the JACKPOT comes in past 60, maybe all the way at the end.

Err... I believe both twincoons and the cloth are dropped by NMs and/or BCs so not really able to farm them as such. Anyway you actually make a loss from making a corsage from twin thread (I know since I made my own signed one ^^) I dunno about the rest of the opaline set but I believe you don't really make much profit from them.

Point is if you are making profit from low level synths it isn't much and if you have say a lv60+ character you are able to farm/mine (maybe even fish) more than you'd get from those synths.

[Prrsha]

Err... I believe both twincoons and the cloth are dropped by NMs and/or BCs so not really able to farm them as such. Anyway you actually make a loss from making a corsage from twin thread (I know since I made my own signed one ^^) I dunno about the rest of the opaline set but I believe you don't really make much profit from them.

On another note... if you are a high level fisherman you can fish up the twinthread from legendary fish.

[Losfuin]

Point is if you are making profit from low level synths it isn't much and if you have say a lv60+ character you are able to farm/mine (maybe even fish) more than you'd get from those synths.

Yup, that is what I was trying to get at. When it comes to making gil to live on, I'd sooner go farm bees than craft copper all day. Moreover, Twincoons and Damascene cloth are bad examples, as the items made with them often sell for break-even~ (Vermy), or for loss (Lilac Corsage). In both cases, you're better off selling the raw materials to people wanting to craft vanity items, or trying to HQ. At least, you are on Phoenix.

What I was trying to get at is that a lot of people seem to go "OMG a 1337 crafter makes big gilz, if I have mad skillz I will get mega gilz!" when this is wrong. This is when you get people charging into crafts regardless of costs, believing that having a high-level craft instantly brings bil gil. You can make profit if you plan ahead, do lots of research, and can work the economy. From what I see, most crafters - especially beginner ones - don't do this. Likewise, many crafters don't realise just how sweet Bonecraft 98 and Leathercraft 62 really is

[Alya Mizar (Tsybil)]

Likewise, many crafters don't realise just how sweet Bonecraft 98 and Leathercraft 62 really is

Way true.

I dunno about the rest of the opaline set but I believe you don't really make much profit from them.

Opaline hose could be made at a profit even buying the items before the Xmas explosion of inflation, haven't checked since. No, not a lot, 80 - 150K was all.

Opaline Hose; LC 66, Light crystal, Velvet Cloth x2, Silk Thread x3, Twinthread x2

But if you can kill this dude....

Habetrot; L 57-59 Crawler. Drops; Crawler Egg, Silk Thread, Twincoon. Triggered NM

Then you CAN make nice Gil.

[Sugami]

So the NM is popped is it? Doesn't sound that high-level either I bet the pop item(s) are sold for quite a lot though hehe

Legendary Fish eh, that must be like hitting Orichicalcum(sp?) in Ifrit's then ^^;

Edit: Stack of La Theine Cabbage is the pop item it seems but he's found in temple, euw, and probably camped a fair bit too. Shouldn't be any problem for my RDM

[Alya Mizar (Tsybil)]

Not camped as heavily as you might think. Reasons:

1, You may not pop him, but another non-NM crawler instead. Those may drop thread, eggs or Crawler coocoons I think. Not bad for a stack of cabbage but still....

2, A 15 min. wait before he can be popped again.

3, Temple of Ugly location. Under level 60? Don't go there. Under level 65? Don't go there solo.

[Prrsha]

Legendary Fish eh, that must be like hitting Orichicalcum(sp?) in Ifrit's then ^^;

Acutally it bites often if you use Lu Shangs rod and the proper bait. You can fish up about 20 of them an hr. The problem is that you need a high fishing skill plus you have to run to selbina to gut them. Also... when gutting the fish there is low % that when it is gutted it has a thread inside.

[xaresity]

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[xaresity]

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