Please Don't Nerf Black Mages!

[Sheala]

Prrsha wrote:

Right after the ranger adjustment in an interview with SE, SE said that they were considering nerfing the damage output of BLMs. How they would do that and when (if they ever do) remains to be seen.

From an article with 1up awhile back:

1UP: Are you looking to do something similar with Black Mages? A recent trend has been these "Manaburning" parties where five Black Mages (and a tank to hold hate) all cast Blizzaga 3 and kick (arguably) too much ass, too fast. Black Mages can hit level 75 in no time using this strategy.

HT: The Black Mages have been way too strong and ever since we released the game, and we've been trying to make them weaker. But as you know, players always find creative ways to get around this (laughs). But as for what we're going to do in the future, we're planning to continue to look to those Black Mages and continue to adjust them.

I really hope SE does not *NERF* black mages. I have not played black mage as Sheala, but I watched Chaoskitten as a black mage in my static. The damage out put was fantastic, but everyone in the party broke into a sweat each time Chaos pulled hate off our tank, Taz. The shear nuking power of the black mage is set off already by her or his paper thin defence.

In addition, black mages (like other mages) have to contended with mana conservation, rising spell scroll costs, and a very low ability to solo. I will try to find the thread which states that killing monsters with spells lowers the drop rate. If this is true, imaging a black mage or white mage trying to farm. Black mages usually don't participate in the actual weapon skill chains. The have to wait for the DDs to pull off the chain and then magic burst on top of that. It is probably like trying to close a level three weapon skill chain. If you or any previous member messes up, no MB or level three skill chain.

Every job has its advantages and disadvantages. So many kitties here understand their favorite jobs and how to get the most out of them. The second most important thing is how to communicate your roll to the rest of the party. Then party leaders can put together effective plans to get the best effect. Waining about the nuking power of black mages is going to reduce the abilities of the party. This will not help anyone, include us damage dealers :!:

[JediKitsune]

The reason they want to nerf BLM is to deter Manaburn parties, the ones that get crazy high EXP amounts using a bunch of BLMs nuking the hell out of... anything.

The fact that an alliance of BLMs can complete Divine Might in a minute or two is pretty damn rediculous as well.

[Neoshinobi]

I will try to find the thread which states that killing monsters with spells lowers the drop rate. If this is true, imaging a black mage or white mage trying to farm.

Bullshit!

[sakono]

killing things with spells doesn not lower the drop rate. my drop rate is the same as my thfs and any other job i've lvled. only better drop rate i get is when i sub thf for TH but then again TH helps basicly all drops so.

[Losfuin]

I think killing a group of mobs with -ga spells results in a lower drop rate, even if /thf is sub. I heard a lot of talk on Alla about this - not the most reliable of sources, I know - but it'd be a sensible thing. You can't search 15 corpses as quickly and as thoroughly as you can 1.

A "nerf" may not be coming, but an adjustment? Most certainly. Blue Mages are about to enter the game. I wouldn't be surprised if something about BLM is changed to allow BLU to fit in more readily, and in a more balanced fashion, with parties.

I normally wander around the game as my BLM, and would I like changes? Not really. Would I complain? Depends what they are. One thing I would like to see modified is elemental strengths. With the lower-level spells in the Dunes, elements don't seem to matter as much as I think they should. It might mean that Pugs become tougher - no Thunder - but ho hum.

[Kailea]

yeah I am tired of hearing nerf nerf nerf nerf....... not once have I seen a "nerf" it has always been an ajustment made to make the over all game better, just because it makes the job less desirable to you does not mean it is a nerf......I hope they do ajust BLM, and balance it out like they did the other jobs, oh and dont forget this.......

-Additions and adjustments to the battle system

http://www.playonline.com/ff11us/information/1116.html

maybe this will ajust many jobs, and they will not make ajustments to the job itself

[Sheala]

JediKitsune wrote:

The reason they want to nerf BLM is to deter Manaburn parties, the ones that get crazy high EXP amounts using a bunch of BLMs nuking the hell out of... anything.

The fact that an alliance of BLMs can complete Divine Might in a minute or two is pretty damn rediculous as well.

Mana burn parties as I understand it uses kiting to run the monster around in circles instead of using a tank. This is actually a clever idea that other damage dealers can and have used. Arrow burn party anyone? It is just not for rangers but can include other DD subing warrior. For the record, the traditional experience point party has still survived this and other so called challenges. Every job has a roll and benefit it can bring the party. Tanking, healing, damage dealing, refreshing, enfeebling, nuking, hate control, and even pulling all have places in a good party. I constantly hear "We DDs are having a hard time finding party invites. Nerf this job. Nerf that job!" Nerf the dragoon. Nerf the samurai. Nerf the rangers. Now nerf the black mages. While we are at it let's nerf the rest of the jobs as well. Even when rangers were hot, the good parties invited an extra DD or two for weapon skill chains and damage over time.

SE made it hard to have a party of just one or two jobs to handle everything. The mana burn parties work on nuking and kiting. If someone messes up the kiting, they have a dead black mage on their hands. X-burn parties are not free rides. It takes a full party of skilled players to pull it off. And I have news for everyone. Non-traditional parties will never go away :!: There will always be highly able players coming up with new and unusual formats.

Banning X-burn parties will not get DD a significantly increased rate of invites. Black mages deal damage differently from damage dealers. The job slot are not the same. Nuke damage comes in burst and the mage has to watch the hate line. DDs also watch the hate line also, but the deal their damage over time. This means DDs don't have to worry as much about pulling hate. A quick survey of the armor will also show that DDs' protection is better than a black mages. A DD can survive a hit or two that will kill a black mage instantly. Yes I'm assuming up to date equipment on both. Again I hope the black mage is not nerfed because the huge amount of damage they can do is already offset by their paper thin defences. I have not had time to look for the Allakhazam thread that talks about spells and farming. Maybe I will have time tonight.

[Crispleaf]

There already was an "adjustment" to black mages, though you may not have noticed.

Manaburn parties had the ability to repeatedly kill "summons" from a handful of creatures, particularly in Sky and Sea. The trouble was the "summons" were relatively easy xp, and the "summoners" would infinitely bring out new "summons" (e.g. a dragoon-like creature in sea would constantly summon new sea-wyverns).

Manaburn parties have known to chain into 200s on these.

So, SE now limits the number of times these "summoners" can summon. So you might only get 5 summons and it will never summon again.

That was adjustment. I don't think there's any need to panic any further.

[Alya Mizar (Tsybil)]

The few manaburn parties that I have been in use Sleep rather than kiting.

I can't understand why a party full of mages with Sleep II would ever kite anything.

[Sheala]

Tsybil wrote:

The few manaburn parties that I have been in use Sleep rather than kiting.

I can't understand why a party full of mages with Sleep II would ever kite anything.

I must be missing something. You put the monster to sleep. You then blast it with a spell. The damage wakes the monster up and it goes after the player with the most hate. The party then has to sleep the mob to keep it from killing the black mage. What is happening during the time the monster is sleeping? Any non-damaging enfeeble could be cast on it and the mages might be able to rest a bit, but only damage will kill the monster and we know it will wake the mob back up again. I know kiting works because it is Mithra Pride Phoenix's favorite tactic during garrison runs.

[Chaoskitten21]

I have not played black mage as Sheala, but I watched Chaoskitten as a black mage in my static. The damage out put was fantastic, but everyone in the party broke into a sweat each time Chaos pulled hate off our tank, Taz.

hehehe no one broke into more of a sweat than i did lol.

[Chaoskitten21]

kiting is a tactic MPphoenix uses for garrison and EF runs.during the 2nd and 3rd waves of garrison the kiter will voke a melee mob and kite it away from the outpost and a blm will sleep it then the white mages can hela and rest while the kiter keeps voking and the blm keeps sleeping.kiting in ef is another tactic.the thf uses flee and kites the mobs while the melees take out the drk or blm mobs first

[Alya Mizar (Tsybil)]

Tsybil wrote:

The few manaburn parties that I have been in use Sleep rather than kiting.

I can't understand why a party full of mages with Sleep II would ever kite anything.

I must be missing something. You put the monster to sleep. You then blast it with a spell....

No, five BLMs blast it with spells. In the parties I have been in, the prefered target is Crabs, the spell is Freeze. It does not live. If it does, well I have another Sleep loaded and ready.

[Sheala]

Tsybil wrote :

No, five BLMs blast it with spells. In the parties I have been in, the prefered target is Crabs, the spell is Freeze. It does not live. If it does, well I have another Sleep loaded and ready.

That's interesting. On Phoenix, the X-burn parties are almost always kited. Non-black mage burn parties usually don't even have the option to sleep the monster. Still I hate to see what happens if the mob resist the sleep spell. :O

The point of my thread is nerfing black mage will not stop normal parties. Nor will nerfing black mage stop creative use of what is already there. To stop the sleep style of mana burn parties you speak of Tsybil, you would have to take away the sleep spell. Imagine what that would do to a normal party! And the way the hate system is currently set up, nothing will stop kiting :!: Can black mages do awesome amounts of damage? yes; Can black mages survive a more than a couple of hits from an IT++ monster? Probably not. Also their damage over time is limited by their mana. There are already plenty of restrictions on black mage. SE does not need to nerf them.

[Alya Mizar (Tsybil)]

On Phoenix, the X-burn parties are almost always kited.

That's interesting, I have never heard of Kiting for Manaburn. A good day, I learned something new.

Non-black mage burn parties usually don't even have the option to sleep the monster. Still I hate to see what happens if the mob resist the sleep spell.

If the monster resists me, I have five backups. If I level my archery again, perhaps I can get into an arrowburn party. Gravity for a Kiting party.....

The point of my thread is nerfing black mage will not stop normal parties. Nor will nerfing black mage stop creative use of what is already there.

Trrrue.

Can black mages survive a more than a couple of hits from an IT++ monster? Probably not.

Well... actually....

I was in a Manaburn party full of.... adjectives fail me. There were two compentent BLMs in it, one way underequipped, and one fool. Not all of them had Freeze, so the spells went off in a staggered fashion. The fool insisted on casting Drain AFTER I slepted the Crab. Crab would wake up, swat him once or twice, and one of the compentent BLMs would sleep it. Then 2 - 3 big nukes would hit it, and controll would be lost again. His reason? I need the HPs.... Yes, he certanly needed the HPs. Sometimes he would take 3 hits from an IT++ Crab.

Once we explained to the fool that Drain would awaken the critter (how does a BLM get to 56 without knowing this?), he Drained twice on the pull and never needed the HPs again.

[Sheala]

Tsybil wrote:

Sheala wrote:
Can black mages survive a more than a couple of hits from an IT++ monster? Probably not.


Well... actually....

I was in a Manaburn party full of.... adjectives fail me. There were two compentent BLMs in it, one way underequipped, and one fool. Not all of them had Freeze, so the spells went off in a staggered fashion. The fool insisted on casting Drain AFTER I slepted the Crab. Crab would wake up, swat him once or twice, and one of the compentent BLMs would sleep it. Then 2 - 3 big nukes would hit it, and controll would be lost again. His reason? I need the HPs.... Yes, he certanly needed the HPs. Sometimes he would take 3 hits from an IT++ Crab.

Once we explained to the fool that Drain would awaken the critter (how does a BLM get to 56 without knowing this?), he Drained twice on the pull and never needed the HPs again. Laughing

Ok, that weird. In normal xp parties like Chaoskitten confirmed, the black mage will go down in three hits. May be it is because most black mages are tarutarus. (Althena knows they are super low on hit points to begin with. ) But even in our static, Chaoskitten (Mithra Black Mage) was in deep trouble after just two hits. Mage armors have lower defences than the mail armors for tanks and DDs. The black mage class has fewer hit points than any of the other starting jobs. A lot of mages on Phoenix will choose armor not based on level and protection, but on other benefits like +int or +mana. So our mages are running around with under leveled armors and defences for the sake of improving their spell ablities. While even a tarutaru black mage can survive one hit from an IT++ monster, a Galka black mage can go down with as few as two or three hits. The point is black mages can easily dish it out, but have a hard time taking damage. Mana burn parites are dangerous for noobs as Tsybil pointed out. That is why most mages on Phoenix still prefer the comforts of a traditional xp party.