WARNING! DO NOT USE THE FFXI WINDOWER!

[Karou Ariyen]

good point, this is something the RIAA court case didnt cover, becuase filesharing doesnt alter stuff. So my best guess would be if and IF they have proof that the game files are being altered and modified, that falls under piracy laws (i think, its 3am here and im not reading anymore legal mumbo jumbo tonight) would entitle SE w/ the support of Local, State Or Federal Law Enforcment to conduct player scans based off waht they may retrive from the TP requests.

only speculation, that all is, but its fun to narrow down the posibilities

[Baketsu]

I should get FFXI for my PS2, then I could hook it up to my snazzy Video card (with composit or S-vide in port)on my PC and have it in a window!!! Or take another computer that has a TV-out and hook it into my computer's TV-in port and have a windower and SE would have no idea at all, ........Nor would they care because the TOS would not be violated. That is if I really just wanted the convienence of having FFXI in a window.

Granted it would be an digital to anologue to digital linky and the quality would suck cause of NTSC or PAL etc.ect.....

Ok, if I really wanted to get devious i would install it on windows server 2003 and use 2nd computer to connect to a new remote terminal and then run my memory hacking tools, etc..etc.... Or I could load Linux and somehow get WINE to work with direct X(good luck getting that to work flawlessly), and run as many terminals as I wanted and run my little scripts etc etc from there.

But I would never do such a thing because I am a system adminstrations sorta guy and not some neubile little hacker punk kid living in his parent's basement saying that things are "teh suck" all the time. I actually understand how some of this fancy tech stuff works and not on a level of "monkey press button, monkey get result" sort of learning curve I see with todays youth, (damn I sound old).



Someone asked earlier how SE could have possibly found out they had a windower, well, there are many ways and i will detail a few here.

1. They use server logging and search for patterns. I.E. a solo monk/war/pld/bst/etc... who Teleports to another location while not being in a party, Someone Teleporting to a location other than a crag, someone teleporting to a location that doesn't have a crag, an abnormal rate of attack while solo with no haste, etc.

This way would catch those who use cheating programs and etc.

2. Looking for software hooks into their application. This could have been how the windower was found out. From how I understand it the windower programs create "hooks" into the DLL's of FFXI and access their creamy goodness to manipulate the program into going into a windowed mode.

This way of detecting woudl probably sniff out custom windowing programs written specifically for FFXI.

3. Priority checking. Windows and any other OS out there have to keep tabs on processes and make sure that they are recieving a certain amount of runtime even if they are runnign in the background. Now if FFXI is the main program that is up it will recieve "Foreground Priority" until another program is activated and made active and then it is switched into "background Priority". The FFXI program could then check and if it detected it had been shifted into the bottom of the windows priority stack then it would send an alert message to the GM's and they would do their deed. Now you may ask, what if I accidentally press Alt-Tab and crash FFXI, won't that trigger an alert? Probably not because SE probably have some code that checks and if it has lost priority for over a certain amount of time then it would send the alert to a GM. When alt-tabbing FFXI it doesn't last long and shuts down immediately.

I would suspect in this case you could run a windower, but you would have to be vigilant to not check your e-mail or a web site too long or it will be GOTCHA!!! Plus they probably server log these if they do log them and if you got too many in a row then they call the GM?




I hope this information is enlightening.

[Karou Ariyen]

you bet it is, clears it up for me, so we've narrowed down hundreds of possibilbilites to those 3, there may be more yes, but i know that clears it up for me, oh and if my cousin is reading this,

RIN I WARNED YOU! If you get cuaght using it, your on your own kiddo, becuase a. this isnt my XI account solely, so not a ghost of a chance are you touching it, and b. well i just dun like you cuz

[Prrsha]

/bows to Baketsu's greatness.

[Sigyn]

I was going to say something snide about Prrsha being all wet/hard over this new news from S/E.... but then I realized that he/she/it has so little to live for, that any news about anti-botting or 3rd party pretty much makes his/her day, and well... who am I to take that away?


I guess it just shows the pettiness of some people to take up causes, no matter how trivial, in order to lord it over people.

Enjoy your high horse, Prrsha.

[Kintrra]

Alright a comment like that just itches for retalation. Prrsha only sees it as fitting that someone got what was coming to them. No if's, and's, or but's about it. I see it as being right as well. Windower's are a third party program and change the way the game is played. Simple as that. It's like playing Diablo II with a maphack program. It changes the gameplay, and therefore, is against the rules. If being happy that someone got caught doing what they knew damned well not to do in the first place puts us on a high horse, that's fine, because that way at least we keep our feet out of the mud.

Now perhaps the GM was a little harsh, but 96hour tempbans appear to be the norm for this type of thing, therefore, I don't really see why it was in question. Me, if I had a stupid day and did something like this and got caught, I'd be happy to take the 96hour tempban, because it's either that or kiss all of my work on my character so far goodbye. Seems like a rather simple choice to me.

Oh, and Batsu. People put you on ignore for statements like those in this thread because you're trying to shove your opinion down their throats as being right. Which is, in itself, the wrong way to go at it.

Anyway, was the GM doing his job? Yes, and quite fairly at that. Was he terribly polite about it? Not really, but I asked an officer one time why I was getting a ticket because of something that I did in reaction to something someone else did (preventing myself from wrecking in the process) and I've yet to get an answer, and I still got the ticket. It's the way it goes. I'm sure that GM didn't wanna deal with all the whining, because that person did a lot of it, because it was the first time they'd ever used a windower. It's probably also the first time they'd been called to attention for something like that, and let's face it, no one likes standing up to punishment, ne?[/quote]

[Tivia]

I will keep using a windower regardless. They can't really detect that you're using a a windower unless they scan you computer which is illegal, and honestly if they could detect you running 3rd party programs why haven't they banned all the provoke bots, fish bots?

Once again, prove to me that they can't detect it. Do you have any idea how the windower works or even marks the TP of players? No. It could send TP requests to the server a million times a sec. That would be one way to detect it. You should know that not every program works the same way.

I suppose this is where I come in.

SE has overstepped their bounds here sorry. I know how the windower work, I have seen the base code afterall. It is Undetectable, outside Scanning the pc specifically for it. I will not go into any more details other then that, but it does not transmit anything out off of the client machine so there is no possible way to detect it, outside a Bug which I doubt.

Of course I warned against taking this windower this far anyhow..so In the end One can only blame themselves. It should have remained strictly a windower..nothing more..and make the other pretty features a seperate Add on interface if people wanted to use them.

SE could simply resolve the issue like EQ did by just allowing their program to be windowed...Its really not that big of a deal and not allowing windowed mode does not in any manner prevent any cheats..As a matter of fact it makes the program honestly more vulnerable..But I am sure their uber intelligent coders know that already. Dont they?

By the way,

3. Priority checking. Windows and any other OS out there have to keep tabs on processes and make sure that they are recieving a certain amount of runtime even if they are runnign in the background. Now if FFXI is the main program that is up it will recieve "Foreground Priority" until another program is activated and made active and then it is switched into "background Priority". The FFXI program could then check and if it detected it had been shifted into the bottom of the windows priority stack then it would send an alert message to the GM's and they would do their deed. Now you may ask, what if I accidentally press Alt-Tab and crash FFXI, won't that trigger an alert? Probably not because SE probably have some code that checks and if it has lost priority for over a certain amount of time then it would send the alert to a GM. When alt-tabbing FFXI it doesn't last long and shuts down immediately.

I would suspect in this case you could run a windower, but you would have to be vigilant to not check your e-mail or a web site too long or it will be GOTCHA!!! Plus they probably server log these if they do log them and if you got too many in a row then they call the GM?

That would require Scanning the End users system, this is the same thing the RIAA got into Serious trouble over, and it is infact Illegal for SE to do it.

Of course in the end this is why I script for WoW now instead of FFXI..mostly because Blizzard was dumb enough to include an insanly powerful scripting engine in their game that accesses memory address's through their game, and as such if you know how to write the code you can write far more powerful tools within the game without using a single third party tool....heh idiots.

[Kailea]

yes like many have said, the only way for SE to see you useing WIndower is to scan your PC, and that it self is a big lawsuit nono......and trust me I would do it....

SEs policy as some said will not hold up in court because it si to general, and the fact that the main function of the Windower is not harmful to the game itself, PS2 people can look at a PC screen while playing FFXI so I should beable to as well (useing WIndower) SE is the one that is starting to get on a high horse, and if they dont get off soon, they will be royaly screwed.

Me useing windower is not harmful tao any hardware/sofware and gameplay (the way I use it anyway) and SE scanning my PC for files is an invasion of privacy....witch will hold in court lol...I know ^.^

[Prrsha]

I will keep using a windower regardless. They can't really detect that you're using a a windower unless they scan you computer which is illegal, and honestly if they could detect you running 3rd party programs why haven't they banned all the provoke bots, fish bots?

Once again, prove to me that they can't detect it. Do you have any idea how the windower works or even marks the TP of players? No. It could send TP requests to the server a million times a sec. That would be one way to detect it. You should know that not every program works the same way.

I suppose this is where I come in.

SE has overstepped their bounds here sorry. I know how the windower work, I have seen the base code afterall. It is Undetectable, outside Scanning the pc specifically for it. I will not go into any more details other then that, but it does not transmit anything out off of the client machine so there is no possible way to detect it, outside a Bug which I doubt.

Of course I warned against taking this windower this far anyhow..so In the end One can only blame themselves. It should have remained strictly a windower..nothing more..and make the other pretty features a seperate Add on interface if people wanted to use them.

SE could simply resolve the issue like EQ did by just allowing their program to be windowed...Its really not that big of a deal and not allowing windowed mode does not in any manner prevent any cheats..As a matter of fact it makes the program honestly more vulnerable..But I am sure their uber intelligent coders know that already. Dont they?

By the way,

3. Priority checking. Windows and any other OS out there have to keep tabs on processes and make sure that they are recieving a certain amount of runtime even if they are runnign in the background. Now if FFXI is the main program that is up it will recieve "Foreground Priority" until another program is activated and made active and then it is switched into "background Priority". The FFXI program could then check and if it detected it had been shifted into the bottom of the windows priority stack then it would send an alert message to the GM's and they would do their deed. Now you may ask, what if I accidentally press Alt-Tab and crash FFXI, won't that trigger an alert? Probably not because SE probably have some code that checks and if it has lost priority for over a certain amount of time then it would send the alert to a GM. When alt-tabbing FFXI it doesn't last long and shuts down immediately.

I would suspect in this case you could run a windower, but you would have to be vigilant to not check your e-mail or a web site too long or it will be GOTCHA!!! Plus they probably server log these if they do log them and if you got too many in a row then they call the GM?

That would require Scanning the End users system, this is the same thing the RIAA got into Serious trouble over, and it is infact Illegal for SE to do it.

Of course in the end this is why I script for WoW now instead of FFXI..mostly because Blizzard was dumb enough to include an insanly powerful scripting engine in their game that accesses memory address's through their game, and as such if you know how to write the code you can write far more powerful tools within the game without using a single third party tool....heh idiots.

What about the TP plug in? Can't that be detected without a system scan? Also what about the game files? Does the windower alter them?

[Prrsha]

I guess it just shows the pettiness of some people to take up causes, no matter how trivial, in order to lord it over people.

One could also say the same thing about flaming trolls but of course that doesn't count right? After all one wouldn't want to be a hypocrite.

[Yugi]

too much my brain hurts..x.x

[Tivia]

The TP plug in and other features do nothing more then reside in the memory of your system and Read information sent by the server and translate it. Now do not get me wrong, I think this carried things too far. That information and alot more is sitting in your memory at all times, I could go into specifics on how the incoming information is actually handled by FFXI and why we are able to read all of it but I think that is information better left alone. Lets suffice to say using a memory address reading program like Artmoney for example if you know what to look for there is easily 100 times more information being sent to your pc from the SE servers then what you actually see in game.

Does the windower Alter game files in any manner? Not to my knowledge, there is no reason too. That would jump into outright hacking like the teleport tool does and that is absolutly unnecessary. All it does at its base level is Read specific information in the memory address's. Now on that note so I give you an idea as to what type of information is in the memory, The type of fish on your line...If you are fishing you only know you caught something until you reel it in..the game actually knows via your memory exactly what is on your line. this info can be accessed with the correct knowledge. Another example, In the memory the Spawn location and the Exact time a NM will spawn is in your memory Long before it appears on anyone's screen. If you know where this is, a bot can be written to voke that precise spot the millisecond its suppossed to spawn. This is something I have railed against from the beginning, I have no objections to tools designed to help alleviate repetative tasks, But I am vehemetly against outright hacking a game or using something that gives a player a blatently unfair advantage. Now the windower does not do those tasks, btw I am just doing a comparison so you understand the difference in translating information sent to your computer, and altering it.

How do I know the above? Simple before the great fishing break I wrote a full fledged bot simply to see if I could. It was never released publically, and never will be. Its features were straight foward, It could carry on a full 10 minute conversation with another player, it operated very similiar to an IRC bot without the obvious stupidities of an IRC bot, It woulld detect what specific fish was on the end of the line and you could select what you wanted to fish, if it was not what you selected it would auto dump it, eliminating the need for tons of throw away procedures and inventory sorting. It could go to town and either Vendor the fish, or place in the AH at a pre determined price, it would replenish bait and it could auto navigate obstacles. If it came back and a player was in your spot it would select another spot and move there. It could respond to GM commands. In a nutshell unless you were willing to speak to it longer then 10 minutes there was no possible way to tell it was not me. For obvious reasons I never released it, never will. Of course that was before fish stamina and such so it would not work now anyhow. Again this is all stuff possible simply by reading the information that SE sends to your pc, but does not necessarly want you to see..Its very easy to see it.

[Karou Ariyen]

Yers but if it sits within the memory, how does it access other players TP w/o surfacing across the server?

[Mystiana]

There is way too much information sitting in the FFXI memory pool. There are entire lists of mobs in memory. This must include the statistics for the pc's in the area.

My educated guess is that what you have is a player object. In this object has everything about the player already intact. Race, gender, face, equipment, HP, MP, TP, location, etc. It wouldn't make much sense to make a new player object that only has limited information. This may be something that Square will consider now... but on the other hand, they may simply take their crusade against the windower instead as enough of an action.

I'm really disappointed that such a useul tool as the windower has expanded into a collection of open cheating devices. This may be the end of the windower.

[Karou Ariyen]

so then basically it already has the information in the memory and can run a check to mock it up already? Interesting, and yes a wonderful tool thats become a cheating device i hate those.

[Yukira]

Good. It's about time they take a more strict line in these things.

[Kailea]

No Yukira -.- its not good, they are getting strict, but to strict and on the wrong people.......... NM bots and bots for that matter and gilselling and buying, those are issues that are troublesome.....someone useing the windower...is nothing that they should get all upped about. and for those people that reported people useing windower, I have one thing to say to you if you are reading this.......You really need to get a grip if you thing you will feel better by reporting someone useing "oh my god" the windower -.-

[Prrsha]

No Yukira -.- its not good, they are getting strict, but to strict and on the wrong people.......... NM bots and bots for that matter and gilselling and buying, those are issues that are troublesome.....someone useing the windower...is nothing that they should get all upped about. and for those people that reported people useing windower, I have one thing to say to you if you are reading this.......You really need to get a grip if you thing you will feel better by reporting someone useing "oh my god" the windower -.-

You are missing the point Kailea, it's not the Windower that people are upset with, it's the plugins it contains like the TP meter and a slew of open text support options. Those programs are used to cheat.

[Kintrra]

Yes, it is the cheats that go into it that are the problem. SE could solve the problem and make it so you can alt+tab out of the game if they'd be so kind. That would actually balance out the PCvsPS2 side anyway, since PS2 players have the advantage of being able to just hop over to their still usable computer and look stuff up, while us PC players (who aren't using a windower) are stuck with having to at least templog to POL in order to alt+tab out to go look at the same stuff the PS2 players can walk over and look up. So frustrating? Yes, but capable of being dealt with, since it's possible to go straight back into the game. Though they could shorten the damned templog time, at least if you're in town or something. -_-

[Karou Ariyen]

PS2 PS2~

but yes i agree with the alt-tab thing, it would be very handy to do.

[Tivia]

SE could solve the problem and make it so you can alt+tab out of the game

Such a simple and obvious solution.

[Dogma]

Been using it all week, just love it!

[Kopopo]

PRINTER.

[Neoshinobi]

SE could solve the problem and make it so you can alt+tab out of the game

Such a simple and obvious solution.

But you see people are not the brighest...case in point.

[Kintrra]

PRINTER.

There are those of us who can't afford those Kopopo.

[Yugi]

i use ps2 also.^-^

[Neoshinobi]

PRINTER.

There are those of us who can't afford those Kopopo.

What dumpster do you live in? Doesn't cost very much for one.

[Kintrra]

What dumpster do you live in? Doesn't cost very much for one.

Alright, you define not very much and I'll let you know if that more than I've got to spare from all of my other bills besides FFXI. And then we'll see if your prices hold true in West Virginia anyway, lol. Plus the cost of paper, ink cartridges, all that other assorted crap.

[Tivia]

PRINTER.

There are those of us who can't afford those Kopopo.

What dumpster do you live in? Doesn't cost very much for one.

Have you see the cost of Ink for most printers? its insane. Aslo why am I going to contribute to the deterioriation of the ecology further by printing out tons of paper when I should be able to just switch between programs seamlessly? Do not get me wrong I am by no means an ecological activist, but I do not believe in creating waste for the sake of creating waste.

[Neoshinobi]

There are those of us who can't afford those Kopopo.

What dumpster do you live in? Doesn't cost very much for one.

Have you see the cost of Ink for most printers? its insane. Aslo why am I going to contribute to the deterioriation of the ecology further by printing out tons of paper when I should be able to just switch between programs seamlessly? Do not get me wrong I am by no means an ecological activist, but I do not believe in creating waste for the sake of creating waste.

I didn't mention printer maintainence for a reason.

And a couple pages isn't going to hurt.