THF/RNG vs. THF/NIN for xp pt.

colbwa · Post by **colbwa** » Mon May 23, 2005 1:45 am

Why do people say that /NIN is better for THF than /RNG in experience parties? Makes no sense to me.

Catsby,Mut_AND_Xaviar · Mon May 23, 2005 1:57 am

Well you see there fellow kitty, when you sub ninja, you get dual wield which you can use to dual wield archer knives. Since each one gives you +10 to ranged accuracy... it is easy to see why this alone makes it worth it to quite a few people. Also you get utisemi(the blinking ninja spell, I cant spell it) which is better than FLEE for pulling since you can use it every 30 seconds where flee is every 5 minutes. I can safetly say that most will agree with us on that!

Lihera · Post by **Lihera** » Mon May 23, 2005 3:33 am

Well, I do agree that /RNG would be better <50, however, once we hit 50...

BAM! Dual Wield II That's like... haste+25% right there, so /nin is pretty much great for TP gain, and it really pays off when your SC partner is a RNG or a SAM, pulling out a SATA+WS every minute is a nice plus if you ask me.

Eviticus · Post by **Eviticus** » Mon May 23, 2005 3:34 am

Utsusemi breeds laziness. As a Theif I do not need either flee or shadows to avoid getting hit. All you have to do is learn how to position yourself, and when and where to run......the dual Archer knife thing is a good point, however.

Post by **JediKitsune** » Mon May 23, 2005 4:51 am

Eviticus wrote:Utsusemi breeds laziness. As a Theif I do not need either flee or shadows to avoid getting hit. All you have to do is learn how to position yourself, and when and where to run......the dual Archer knife thing is a good point, however.

If we're talking pulling, how do you avoid stuff like Tigers and Raptors? Ya know, the ones that can run faster than you can.

Darkmattre · Post by **Darkmattre** » Mon May 23, 2005 12:54 pm

Utsusemi is more of a safety net. There are times where you are going to have to take hits on the way back to avoid links.

I don't really see the point in subbing rng for xp unless you intend to use the ranged weapon skills.

Ephi · Post by **Ephi** » Mon May 23, 2005 1:30 pm

also when u sub RNG ur gonna HAVE to have some form of bolts or arrows to really make it work out and have benefits...
but with NIN even if u dont have any Shihei for utsusemi u still have dual wield...
sure i use bolts constantly but if it were a total requirement for me to have bolts then i prolly wouldnt do it... tho i did sub RNG in the past b4 i had dual weild on my NIN

colbwa · Post by **colbwa** » Tue May 24, 2005 3:48 pm

Many things I repeat but I wanted to break it down in different ways...multiple times.

I used /NIN until 53...then used /RNG until 58, used /NIN for 59 for research purposes, then returned to /RNG at 60 and will not test /NIN for a long time.

/RNG = + Ranged Accuracy, + AGI (TA DMG), + Ranged Attack, Sharpshot for massive TP gain, Viking Shield + 10 dmg

/NIN = Dual Wield II, + Melee Speed, Utsusemi.

The Utsusemi Argument:

Why is this an added benefit? Mithra THF has incredible evasion so even if you do get hit, 1 Regen would take care of that. Also with /RNG your Ranged distance can be a few steps back so chances of getting hit are far less unless you have a sub par voker.

The Dual Wield I/II Argument:

This is the only reason I feel /NIN is worth it...only because of the stats you get with another weapon. 2 Archers Daggers is worthless in my opinion since you're sacrificing DEX and/or AGI for the Racc. Also you throw your melee damage out the window. Yes you are quicker with your attacks, but then again you aren't hitting as often.

Personally, I see no reason to have dual archer knives because of the dramatic decrease in SATA dmg.

Why /RNG is good:

--My AGI is substantially higher...which helps buff the following:

Evasion
Accuracy and TP gain
Ranged Attack (Substantial increase)
Ranged Accuracy (Substantial increase)
Trick Attack Damage

--Sharpshot enables me to gain TP so fast that I can use Sidewinder and still be able to sc w/ SATA VB when the other member is ready.
Having a Viking Shield with attack +10 (or even the +5 attack shield) is better than having +10 Racc considering the bread & butter of a THF is SATA.

--Wide Scan and Scavenge are more luxeries than benefits.

--There has only been one party where I used Hide + Camoflauge, that was in Valley of Sorrows. I use hide to sneak past the monsters too high for us, activate SATA, activate Flee, use ranged attack, run, activate Camoflauge to sneak past the same monsters, then arrive safely unharmed with a raptor on the way. So I can't logically consider Camoflauge a benefit, although in this particular party it helped kill any downtime.

--Weapon Skills: While I try to avoid getting into a party where we are unable to use Distortion skillchain...some times you can't avoid it.

You join a party, and someone disconnects or someone has to leave and they are your SC partner...someone is replaced that can not do Distortion skillchain...what are you to do? Having a slew of Ranged WS's is very beneficial in these parties where Distortion just ain't happening and it's also fun to use Weapon Skills whenever you want rather than having to wait for SATA timer and someone else to be ready.

Why /RNG is bad:

--Your defense is lower, while a good THF will not be hit...there are some monsters where you can not avoid this. As you guys pointed out, monsters like Velociraptors run faster than you and I can not deny that every now and then I return to the party with HP in the orange, although that is a rare instance.

In other words...when you get hit, you get hit hard, whereas someone with good Ninja skills would very seldom get hit.

--While you do have an AGI boost, you lose some DEX...which is why before level 30, the THF/RNG is not all that great.

Also even though you have accuraccy bonus, I use Ranged Attack far more often so that's not a tremendous help.

--While Sharpshot adds for enourmous TP gain, when it is not activated it is impossible to hit the mob with a Ranged Attack every time...unless you sacrifice DEX, AGI, or melee damage.

/RNG summary:

The point of having this is to do more damage. I've talked to people where they say THF is nothing more than a puller...which is a rediculous statement considering the damage we give.

With no RNG in the party, you are the puller. Having higher Racc and Rattack is a definite plus in this department and, of course, when you're actually fighting it with the other members.

In my experiences, this does sunstantially more damage that /NIN, but the mages do have to cure me (sometimes) when I return to camp although I do feel that several hundred damage points is worth the 15 MP spent for Regen.

You're all familiar with /NIN so I wont get into that, but let me assure you I do not /RNG because it's cool or more fun...in fact I like the "cool" factor of having /NIN and dual wield...also Magic Bursting on your own SC with Ninjitsu is very humerous.

I just don't feel Utsusemi adds much at all considering you don't get hit in a fight and you rarely get hit pulling...and although you guys say you gain TP faster with /NIN...I just don't see it...ranged attacks give far more TP than melee and even though /NIN hits twice...the Ranged Attacks (plus occasional quick shot) simply raises TP faster.

Saying that , I'd also like to say the evasion bonus of /NIN means nothing.

Any holes in my argument? Please let me know. Thank you all for your input.

colbwa · Post by **colbwa** » Tue May 24, 2005 3:48 pm

Eviticus-

Utsusemi breeds laziness:

Thank you ^^

Ephi-

You say you HAVE to use bolts or arrows for /RNG to be a benefit...what else would I use? A boomerang? A gun? Guns have rediculous delay. ^^

Lihera-

Well said about DW II haste.

Basically y'all are saying do Ninja for Utsusemi and Dual Wield.

I'm saying do Ranger for more benefit to the party.

Post by **JediKitsune** » Tue May 24, 2005 10:48 pm

Personally, I'd rather sub WAR for THF if I'm not taking NIN or RNG.

Then again, I'm more experienced with WAR than any other job besides MNK (which is only okay for THF pre-33).

WAR gives some pretty good benefits like Defense boosts, Berserk, double attack, Warcry, and of course Provoke should you EVER need to save the tank or one of the mages (hopefully that won't happen). I think you also get increased VIT and STR but not quite as much of an AGI or DEX boost.

Stuff like Berserk and Warcry could greatly improve the output of SA/TA and Double Attack would help out TP gain in a big way.

colbwa · Post by **colbwa** » Wed May 25, 2005 1:33 am

The double attack + triple attack intrigues me. I'm gonna level my WAR from 15 and test this out...thanks for your input.

Post by **JediKitsune** » Wed May 25, 2005 2:07 am

After doing a small bit of research on Alla, I suppose WAR is used as a sub just as much as RNG and NIN, so it's a pretty good choice if you want to be a tough DD.

Post by **Alya Mizar (Tsybil)** » Wed May 25, 2005 4:38 pm

JediKitsune wrote:Then again, I'm more experienced with WAR than any other job besides MNK (which is only okay for THF pre-33).

Wrong... /MNK is not simply OK for THF < 33. With a set of Republican Knuckles, this is the MOST damage you are going to do as THF < 33. At least without advanced jobs, and I do not think any save /RNG can approach THF/MNK in those levels, and probably not even that one.

Post by **Nivez** » Wed May 25, 2005 5:05 pm

Tsybil wrote:
JediKitsune wrote:Then again, I'm more experienced with WAR than any other job besides MNK (which is only okay for THF pre-33).
Wrong... /MNK is not simply OK for THF < 33. With a set of Republican Knuckles, this is the MOST damage you are going to do as THF < 33. At least without advanced jobs, and I do not think any save /RNG can approach THF/MNK in those levels, and probably not even that one.

w/o advanced jobs i agree, however with advanced jobs, before 33, the most damage you will do is as a thf/nin using dagger/sword combo. after 15, SA Fastblade is a wonderful WS, after 24, SA Shadowstich is also great because it can do fragmentation, or you can stick with SA FB, however all damage asside is thrown out the window post 33.

and just fyi, thief does consistant damage, but a good war/thf using a GA will out damage a thief using SA Sturmwind until lvl 50+. even then, thief is all around good, because they can plaster hate on people 60+ anyone, with TA.

as for the /nin /rng arguement, i prefer to have my thiefs /nin but ive occasionally run into a /rng, and they do a good job. my main quirk for thief is, use a Xbow, and pull with acid bolts, you wouldnt believe how much faster you kill with that def down effect on. plus your Racc and marcsmanship skill are very good to start with. i wouldnt say this is a necessity before lvl 50, but after that (especially on crabs) it really helps speed up chains. also, thiefs bring sleep bolts with you, ive chosen thiefs over drg, drk, and mnk that i know use xbow and acid/sleep bolts, because not only can they help with DOT, they can sleep links and work hate control. becoming a good thief with a good reputation will help you get parties ALOT faster >.>;

oh also, meat mithkabobs or dahmel steak are great till about 40-50, after this youl want to get squid sushi (yes its alot more expensive) but well worth the cost. i wouldnt worry about much acc gear till like 65, then you probably want to pick up a couple of snipers, a life belt is a good investment @ lvl 50 though.

oh one last thing, i know it sounds weird, but around lvl 70 your gonna want to max club skill, bones in King Ranperres Tomb REALLY dont like SATA True Strike (ive seen it do over 1k damage)

colbwa · Post by **colbwa** » Thu Jun 02, 2005 6:25 pm

Yea...I'm gonna pass on leveling the club skill but thanks for the advice!

My War is 21 and I'm quitting this job at 37 most definately.

I absolutely hate going through the Korroloka Tunnel-Valkurm-Qufim cycyle again...had a NIN leader yesterday...she had 5 pieces of gear on...2 were swords. When asked where her other gear was she says

"NIN is my subjob"

I did not use provoke for the rest of the time yet I was killed twice after gaining hate. Boy I love morons.

But anyway that is just a side note...I'll be trying out THF / WAR within a week and am getting fairly excited about double attack + triple attack.

Prrsha · Post by **Prrsha** » Thu Jun 02, 2005 6:34 pm

Catsby,Mut_AND_Xaviar wrote: You have added this person to your Ignore List. Click HERE to view this post.

colbwa wrote: You have added this person to your Ignore List. Click HERE to view this post.

Ahhhh!

/content

Lihera · Post by **Lihera** » Thu Jun 02, 2005 7:25 pm

/worship

THANK YOU! THANK YOU FOR GETTING THIS FEATURE!

Nobodyreal · Post by **Nobodyreal** » Fri Jun 03, 2005 8:43 am

How did Colbwa even start posting again? I thought he'd been banned.

Prrsha · Post by **Prrsha** » Fri Jun 03, 2005 11:50 am

Nobodyreal wrote:How did Colbwa even start posting again? I thought he'd been banned.

Trrrolls have a problem with staying dead. Must be their natural regeneration ability orrr something.

Lihera · Post by **Lihera** » Fri Jun 03, 2005 3:18 pm

Actually, if I recall correctly, the just IP banned him.

Reason being, by the time his IP changes, he could have changed. I dunno. I think our only real perm bans are Xaviar and T3T.

colbwa · Post by **colbwa** » Mon Jun 06, 2005 12:03 am

Got my War up to 30 now I get to see what THF/WAR is like. I'll keep posting for those that are interested with the purpose of this thread.

Post by **Alya Mizar (Tsybil)** » Mon Jun 06, 2005 5:05 am

colbwa wrote:Got my War up to 30 now I get to see what THF/WAR is like.

Before adanced jobs, THF/MNK is the best combo. I have NO idea at all how it plays after level 33 and Viper Bite. But untill then Republic Knucks just RULE.

Downside of anything/WAR is you can wind up tanking. Kinda kills SA.

My Hume THF is the least played of my characters, she is only level 21.

Post by **Karou Ariyen** » Mon Jun 06, 2005 9:14 am

From what I understand, THF/WAR is a definate viable combo, but if you're looking for a good thief sub til Ninja.... Monk is the way to go, also viable til Ranger, all in all it's really based upon the player themselves, most jobs like that have lost of viable subjobs, it just takes a personal choice and skill to choose one.

I've seen great THF/NIN's and great THF/RNG's each are equally balanced in different aspects.

colbwa · Post by **colbwa** » Mon Jun 06, 2005 10:49 pm

For me, the most fun is having what's most beneficial to the party. I have tried THF/NIN and THF/RNG ... leaning towards THF/RNG as being the better of the two.

Just because a job isn't an "advanced" job doesn't mean it isn't good.

Remember the jobs that are "advanced" are just expansion jobs.

colbwa · Post by **colbwa** » Thu Jun 09, 2005 6:26 pm

I now believe Ninja is the 3rd best /sub for THF and Monk is the 4th.

Neoshinobi · Post by **Neoshinobi** » Fri Jun 10, 2005 10:59 pm

colbwa wrote:I now believe Ninja is the 3rd best /sub for THF and Monk is the 4th.

What are the first two?

colbwa · Post by **colbwa** » Sun Jun 12, 2005 1:55 am

Ranger and Warrior

Yugi · Post by **Yugi** » Sun Jun 12, 2005 3:32 am

Jaela · Post by **Jaela** » Mon Jun 13, 2005 4:52 am

I like THF/RNG better, so i will continue to be it. (I macro in Carapace Rings+1 in my Ranged Attack Macro XP)

Although, i am getting tired of people saying this...
"D00d wtf?!?!11 u shud have /NIN not /RNG u n00b"

colbwa · Post by **colbwa** » Thu Jun 16, 2005 7:56 pm

Some guy told me that double attack is the same thing as dual weild. I never convinced him that dual weild is similar to having a 2handed weapon (because of the delay increase.)

I get the same crap from /NIN claiming that I am foolish (aka noobish) for having /RNG and not /NIN

MithraPride

THF/RNG vs. THF/NIN for xp pt.

THF/RNG vs. THF/NIN for xp pt.

Argh ><