Legalities of gilselling

[Sugami]

There's been a bit of discussion on IRC (think yesterday ^^) about whether this is legal or not (besides it violating game policies).
I e-mailed a lecturer at my university who teachers laws and ethics to do with computing and such and thus is his responce:

The best way to analyse this is to extract the essentials from the
scenario. We have a situation where a player accumulates an object of
value ('gil') and, rather than using it themselves, passes it to
someone else, in return for a benefit.

Now, think of a game played with printed cards, where you could buy
cards from the manufacturer, or trade cards between players. If one
player decided they wanted to play something else, and sold off their
cards for cash, do you think they should be allowed to do so? As far as
the manufacturer is concerned, they've made their profit; and, by
allowing another player to have the cards, the game itself is
maintained, too.

Moving on to consideration of your Final Fantasy XI game, I'd suggest
the principle is pretty much the same; only if the 'gil' were obtained
by fraudulent means would there be illegality.

So, sorry, but I doubt that there's anything here that breaks the law
(breaking special game laws is, of course, a different thing). The
intellectual property could be argued to have been obtained by the
gilseller in a legal way, so, once it's legally owned, they can
obviously pass on their legal rights to it to someone else - for free,
or for payment.

[Shirai]

There's a few good points there,
but, before this runs out into a morality session.

FFXI EULA:

Article 3: Prohibited Activities and Indemnification
3.1 Prohibited Activities.
You may not use the Game or PlayOnline for any activities that are illegal, fraudulent, or a violation of the rights of any third party. Without limiting the generality of the foregoing, the following acts and activities are strictly prohibited and shall, without prejudice to any other rights or remedies that SEI may have, be cause for immediate termination of your PlayOnline account and your right to play the Game (or any other services) in connection therewith:

(a) Any activities consisting of selling, purchasing or exchanging “gil” or any other currency that may be used in the Game from time to time, characters, and/or Game items for value (including, but not limited to, any payment in kind and any payment in any currency recognized as legal tender in any country, state, territory or other jurisdiction anywhere in the world) through any means or venue, including, without limitation, Internet auctions or other online exchanges;

Tho it may be legal wat the gillies do,
S-E clearly states in their EULA that those activities ingame are illegal.
By installing and playing those gillies have agreed to it and have been breaking it since day 1.
Thus making their activities illegal according to the game regulations.

No SE can't take any legal steps, yes they can terminate accounts of people caught doing this.

[Josiejo]

Heh... I can't believe you asked a university professor about gaming ethics. I hope you didn't expect him to grab you buy the shoulders, yell "eureka!" and start writing up cases against IGE.

The only way to fraudulently acquire virtual monies/items is to force Square's database to include them into your inventory, which breaks tons of electronic information laws. (Hack the planet!) Otherwise, someone earns them and may decide to give them away or sell them. Of course, no one is going to complain if a player chooses to simply give another player items/gil, because there's no exchange externally, other than intangilbles like feelings of goodwill and appreciation.

However, it's more often the case that a player feels they require something before they've earned it. In that case, between strangers at least, they're asking other players for something they don't really deserve, so there's gotta be some incentive for the transaction to occur. Most often, that's real-world currency. It's hardly a question of social ethics if you consider the fact that it's just one thing in exchange for another. If you drew something and someone else really liked it, you may decide the only way you'd give it away is to receive some sort of equivalent compensation. This perspective on the issue of trading virtual goods for real currency almost needs not be pointed out, it's so blatent.

The real problem is with gaming ethics: what's fair strictly inside the bounds of the game? Is it fair for someone to purchase Strider Boots online when it took you 3 weeks to get the drop? Should someone be able to buy $2 million gil when other players would spend weeks farming without possibly reaching that amount? The obvious answer is no. This is what the EULA dictates, and it's the only thing that really makes gilselling a legal issue. Besides legality though, most serious or avid gamers just don't do it because it doesn't seem or feel right. The biggest part of playing a game is the experiences in between the beginning and end. It cheapens the experience to use influence outside the game to have an advantage over others, and even over the game system itself.

This is why people should not buy/sell virtual goods, not because of legal conflicts but moral ones as true gamers.

[Sugami]

Hey I was interested in what the law had to say on this kinda thing

Since SE can't sue and only ban accounts they only stand to lose $x/month from it, which is probably why they don't appear to do anything about it.

[Prrsha]

Not only that, but it fuels gilsellers to compete with normal players regarding monster drops, hense driving up the prices of them in game due to a monolopy.

Gil selling also drives up AH prices as well on normal items. When a player buys 1 million gil from IGE and decides to level a craft, in most cases he could care less about paying more for a material. After all, what's 1 million gil when he could always buy some more? It took no time investment on his part to obtain it.

Now you may say, "but he used RL cash and that takes time and effort to make!". I'd have to agree but most of the active gil buyers in the game are either children of rich parents (who let them buy whatever they want) or just rich in general. Buying gil is a drop in the bucket to them.

Some hard core gamers may buy gil, but normally they only do so once to buy a certain item or some such thing. Rich children however, buy gil over and over again.

I really don't know why people feel the need to "cheat" in a video game. Buying gil is akin to playing the board game Monopoly. Would you like it if your friend bribed the banker in the game with RL cash just so he could get enough game cash to buy boardwalk or park place and win the game?

I lump gil selling/buying in the same category as cheaters as I do people who use "wallhacks" "map hacks" or other tools to cheat in other games. If you want to go cheat, play a single player game. Don't drag down the community of a multiplayer game by hacking or cheating.

[Prrsha]

Hey I was interested in what the law had to say on this kinda thing

Since SE can't sue and only ban accounts they only stand to lose $x/month from it, which is probably why they don't appear to do anything about it.

Square has banned many gilsellers in the past. To my knowledge they continue to do so (heck even the Cat group of gil sellers is gone on Phoenix now). But... you have to realize they have certain protocols in doing so. They need proof that someone is selling gil. They can't ban people because he/she said they sell gil. They would end up banning a bunch of legit players as well if they did that and piss off the customer base in general.

The GMs have to monitor the sellers and set up a sting which takes time. They are also taking legal measures (according to them) to see what they can do against IGE. As in any court system, the wheels turn slowly and it may take years to resolve the problem. At the very least though it taxes IGE with laywer fees and if you had a battle of money, Squeenix would come out on top lol.

[Josiejo]

Since SE can't sue and only ban accounts they only stand to lose $x/month from it, which is probably why they don't appear to do anything about it.

That's an interesting way of looking at it... that really doesn't give them much incentive to be overly active in removing gilsellers, other than the "gamer's morality" that I talked about before. Of course, them being a provider of a service that requires maintenance and staff, will not be able to pay for much with heroic gaming morals.

But I'm not sure why they couldn't sue a company like IGE for organizing profit gains from property of S-E. I kinda think about it this way... if you're a programmer working for IBM, anything you program there is considered property of IBM, so you couldn't take your work with you if you left and sell it to a different computing firm, and if you did, IBM could sue you and the company who bought it.

In that light, we're paying for a service originally created by S-E. Since no one would be playing it had they not created it in the first place, they're kind of like the game CEOs. Players are employees in the sense that they create characters to exist in a world created by S-E. When we pay to play, that doesn't entitle us to everything about our characters, but it grants us the ability to play. We're exchanging money for the right to play. When we play FFXI, we're enteracting with S-E's work, and anything we create inside that body of work still legally belongs to S-E. Therefore, selling those things outside the game for someone else to use inside is comparable to my previous example. And an organization formed with the sole purpose to make money off of S-E's work should allow S-E to be able to sue the pants off of IGE.

Think about it... even the screenshot function in-game has a copyright caption. It's all S-E's intellectual property... I don't see how they couldn't be in a position to sue for its abuse.

[Sugami]

But I'm not sure why they couldn't sue a company like IGE for organizing profit gains from property of S-E. I kinda think about it this way... if you're a programmer working for IBM, anything you program there is considered property of IBM, so you couldn't take your work with you if you left and sell it to a different computing firm, and if you did, IBM could sue you and the company who bought it.

I believe my lecturer covered that point ^^

As to setting up sting opperations you'd think it'd be easy to do that with IGE since it seems to be a very well known and public website. Just buy something from them, see who delivers the item in question and ban that account. Simple.

[Prrsha]

But I'm not sure why they couldn't sue a company like IGE for organizing profit gains from property of S-E. I kinda think about it this way... if you're a programmer working for IBM, anything you program there is considered property of IBM, so you couldn't take your work with you if you left and sell it to a different computing firm, and if you did, IBM could sue you and the company who bought it.

I believe my lecturer covered that point ^^

As to setting up sting opperations you'd think it'd be easy to do that with IGE since it seems to be a very well known and public website. Just buy something from them, see who delivers the item in question and ban that account. Simple.

The GMs are not allowed to ask for gil from a gilseller. For some odd reason, the gilseller must approach the GM or a player and ask if they want to buy gil or announce that they are selling gil. I asked a GM why that was the case and they said it was due to some legality issues.

[Crispleaf]

I agree with Sugami that it isn't a criminal offense to sell or buy gil. There is nothing illegal about it.

I also agree with Shirai that to play the game at all, you have agree to a contract that states that you won't sell or buy gil. That means that Square-Enix can take action against a violator as outlined by this agreement. Ultimately, this could be dealt with in civil court.

How IGE gets out of this, however, is by not employing anyone on their payroll who farms gil. They go out of their way to make this clear. Because no one at IGE actually plays the game, they are not liable in civil court because they've never agreed to a contract with Square-Enix to begin with. All they do is facilitate transactions between individuals, and if these individuals happen to be breaking someone's rules, as long as no laws are being violated, it's of no concern to IGE.

[Lihera]

Ya... but they still employ an army of tringo players in SecondLife.... they're just too good

[sakono]

that may be true may not be true. in one of my lses we had 2 gill sellers in it for a day or two. they were invited with out knowing they were gill sellers. when every one found out they were we tryed to find out who they worked for and why they did it. all we got from them was we work for ige and its my job. they wouldn't say any more. we also tryed to get them to understand how they were ruining the game for other people by doing what they were doing. i don't think they were even bothering to pay attention to us then as no more was said from them. after an hour or so they were kicked from the ls.

if ige doesn't employe them i wounder how those people get paid and can claim they work for ige.

(by the way those two gill sellers did say they were from china)

[Crispleaf]

if ige doesn't employe them i wounder how those people get paid and can claim they work for ige.

IGE sets itself up as a mediator in the transaction between gil seller and gil buyer.

A gil seller organization would indicate to IGE that they have gil to sell. IGE posts on their website of the availability of this gil. A gil buyer agrees to the price. IGE then takes the money from the gil buyer, takes their "cut" of the transaction, and sends the rest of the money to the gil seller organization.

Online, the gil sellers would then funnel the purchased gil to the gil buyer in some manner.

[Neoshinobi]

But I'm not sure why they couldn't sue a company like IGE for organizing profit gains from property of S-E. I kinda think about it this way... if you're a programmer working for IBM, anything you program there is considered property of IBM, so you couldn't take your work with you if you left and sell it to a different computing firm, and if you did, IBM could sue you and the company who bought it.

I believe my lecturer covered that point ^^

Josiejo's description was better

The GMs are not allowed to ask for gil from a gilseller. For some odd reason, the gilseller must approach the GM or a player and ask if they want to buy gil or announce that they are selling gil. I asked a GM why that was the case and they said it was due to some legality issues.

I have talked with GMs on this and its called "entrapment" to ask if a person sells gil or to ask if you wan't to buy gil. Although I don't get it really, isn't that just the same as if you asked a man if he ever murdered anyone and he said yes? Would that be "entrapment"?

What I don't get is why agreeing to the EULA is different than agreeing to a contract, if you break the rules set by a contract you agreed to legal action can be taken against you, so why not a EULA? Isn't that the same thing as a contract?

Since SE can't sue and only ban accounts they only stand to lose $x/month from it, which is probably why they don't appear to do anything about it.

From what has been said before and after, those who are banned from usually go and buy another account. So whose to say SE is really losing. It actually seems like they would be gaining from this.

that may be true may not be true. in one of my lses we had 2 gill sellers in it for a day or two. they were invited with out knowing they were gill sellers. when every one found out they were we tryed to find out who they worked for and why they did it. all we got from them was we work for ige and its my job. they wouldn't say any more. we also tryed to get them to understand how they were ruining the game for other people by doing what they were doing. i don't think they were even bothering to pay attention to us then as no more was said from them. after an hour or so they were kicked from the ls.

if ige doesn't employe them i wounder how those people get paid and can claim they work for ige.

(by the way those two gill sellers did say they were from china)

From what I've heard most if not all organized gilsellers come from China, from what I've been told (and hate ) china having a different set of laws makes it troublesome to go after gilsellers there.

Other things I've heard is that that people just play the game all day and its considered "work", where they try to farm a certain set amount of gil in one day and extra amounts means extra pay.

Feel free to give me your opinion on this all, but as I see it SE should have the same right to take legal action about this as Josiejo's IBM idea.

[Aony]

Since SE can't sue and only ban accounts they only stand to lose $x/month from it, which is probably why they don't appear to do anything about it.

From what has been said before and after, those who are banned from usually go and buy another account. So whose to say SE is really losing. It actually seems like they would be gaining from this.

Really what they gilsellers would do when they are banned is buy someone else's account who is selling it, because think, if you're a gilseller, and it's your job to make gil and sell it, you're not going to get any gil to sell in that month it takes to get a new account and set stuff up, then level their character high enough to fight all those NMs that really get the gil, y'no, those couple mil per drop guys that you cant take till level 50 or so. So the gilsellers would just buy someone else's high level account and keep on goin', just a different character. So really, SE doesnt gain anything from this, they make no more money than before because it's the equivelent of the other person before they sold their account.

So, no money gain, no money loss, it goes right down to, as it should be, the rights of the regular players. It has little to no money influence for SE. Unless there's something I've over-looked there, i'm all ears.

Also, with that entrapment thing, why dont they get a regular player to help them out there, say they're going to buy gil, then SE catches the seller before the transaction is made? I've seen on TV that's what the cops do when they're trying to find shops that sell cigarettes to minors, so it's legal....right?

[Rakshasa]

I think the above posts are possibly the best and most well-composed reasons for and against gil buying that I've ever heard. I don't think I could state my reasons for hating gil buying and selling any better. I will have to guide a bunch of people to this topic, especially those who lack guidance.

I've had some experiences in hostile dealings with gilbuyers in the past. Most of the time they only get defensive then angry and have no solid argument to give. I believe most do it because they are a certain type of gamer as a few of you touched on above.

[Sugami]

But I'm not sure why they couldn't sue a company like IGE for organizing profit gains from property of S-E. I kinda think about it this way... if you're a programmer working for IBM, anything you program there is considered property of IBM, so you couldn't take your work with you if you left and sell it to a different computing firm, and if you did, IBM could sue you and the company who bought it.

I believe my lecturer covered that point ^^

Josiejo's description was better

Okay let me explain how Josiejo's IBM example is different to gilselling (I hoped it was clear from what my lecturer said ).

Firstly the "gil" and any other items have been obtained in a legal way so clearly nothing illegal about that. Secondly these items are merely values and variables inside the program that is FFXI. You can't put a patent on a variable, it is just a biproduct of the game.

The IBM example is of someone's complete (or incomplete) work which if you were to compare to FFXI would be the equivalent of selling illegal copys of the whole game.

If you're collecting cards and get a duplicate that someone else wants you are able to sell it to them since you legally purchased the card in the first place. That is what gilselling is like (in a nutshell) ^^;

[Aesha Clan-Clan]

hope you all realize, that there is no real end to this argument, both sides can produce valid points, so i think its probably best to end it at that, ive heard this discussion so so so so so many times, and while i hate gillselling, i cant really do anything about it, so i try my best to deal with it.

[Sugami]

Hehe well put it this way... if they came to court over here it'd get thrown out immediately.
In US a very good laywer may be able to successful sue gilsellers but only if a bad laywer was representing them

[Aesha Clan-Clan]

pretty much, yeah

[sakono]

Also, with that entrapment thing, why dont they get a regular player to help them out there, say they're going to buy gil, then SE catches the seller before the transaction is made? I've seen on TV that's what the cops do when they're trying to find shops that sell cigarettes to minors, so it's legal....right?

with that its different. with doing it in rl with cops you have evidence as in video and audio pluse witnesses.
in the game all you have is text and there would be poeple in game that would say they have blah blah amount of gill and would sell it. they would make sure they get the pay ment before they gave out the gill. then when they got the rl money they would log or do somthing not giving the person the gil. which SE can do nothing about.

but..i digress. srry. the reason they can't is pleople lie. wheather or not its to mess with a person rip them off or what not, they have no way of telling what is the truth and whats not the thruth.
example
person1"hey do happen to sell any gil?"
person2"yeah $50.00 for 500k"
person1"cool. i'll buy that"
person2" ok lemme send you my info so you can send the money."
/tell from person1 to GM
P1"hey this person said there selling 500k for 50 bucks"
GM"ok lemme check the log and i'll take care of it"
/tell GM to P2
GM"i got a report that you were offering to exchange 500k for $50. i also have seen it in the log."
P2"i was just messing around with the guy i don't have 500k and would never sell it."

see person 2 is lieing and yet the GM can do nothing about it, cept tell the guy not to do that again.
only so much people can do in a game if you trying to catch people breaking game laws and such.

(note its 4:53am so i'm srry about the long post and any thing that makes it hard to under stand)

[Baketsu]

Can we sic the IRS on these guys. Kinda of an Evil vs. Evil sorta thing.....


There is not other institution in the world as powerful as the IRS, hath come the Taxman.

[Sugami]

I thought "entrapment" was only something the police could do (or can't being the case). As in any evidence obtained through entrapment can not be used in a court of law.

However this is a game and SE have the right to do what the hell they want for whatever reason they want as it belongs to them. Like a shop having the right to not serve a customer. I making sense? ^^;

[Tivia]

Can we sic the IRS on these guys. Kinda of an Evil vs. Evil sorta thing.....


There is not other institution in the world as powerful as the IRS, hath come the Taxman.

Good lord, what is your sudden facination with the IRS?

There is nothing the IRS can do about this, nor is there anything they would want to do.

Geez Bak, talk about out in left field.

[xaresity]

Тихо375.2AQQABettXVIIWinaFeelLandМоскВВБоподвXVIICatsпредAlexTescцветсвидцветHarrкрасDean0505
римлSergLeigФедоCanzАзарФраеGramTwisГромПолоплясГольМдивавтоWillЗейгNelsKeeyDulcCeylThieКоля
ИванКалиDennNozzредаCotoFyodэкспКиппRobeрабопомедоклAdioEnchQuenжитеMaurВолкБарсАнатRomaГоля
VoguFunkвузоSelaArriElegELEGColiQuikмелоБхагMichRoxyAndrтехнHenrChouженщПомоСмирЕвгекафеверо
АртеJormRobediamJoelZoneChet3110ZoneZoneZoneZoneZoneZoneZoneкараZoneZoneZonediamпериZoneZone
ZoneDecoребямесяAsfuDaviElecMielNeedJeanGranХудоКитаС238страSellиздаEdmiBELLPionобрамногMedi
GardWinnязыкCollтексКошкWindWindGrafFruiLEGOSingChouZdobРР00СокоКондЛитРскорJaroКлимЗарнNigh
ЛитРНохр(190(190пансSinfЧереHandRomaРаспПальDigiXVIIэконСтраШтерEnteTropBritRoadYestArtiКорм
КолдLarrЩенеВНДоСодеТурыAmonJacoPoweСтасВороPeteМакаГСДжСамсКрупигрыBeatВербIndiBirgмесямеся
месяSuprHanssaleБезрклетБахмпервЛукьГойхKark(ЮГИИванtuchkasXVIINero

[xaresity]

audiobookkeeper.rucottagenet.rueyesvision.rueyesvisions.comfactoringfee.rufilmzones.rugadwall.rugaffertape.rugageboard.rugagrule.rugallduct.rugalvanometric.rugangforeman.rugangwayplatform.rugarbagechute.rugardeningleave.rugascautery.rugashbucket.rugasreturn.rugatedsweep.rugaugemodel.rugaussianfilter.rugearpitchdiameter.ru
geartreating.rugeneralizedanalysis.rugeneralprovisions.rugeophysicalprobe.rugeriatricnurse.rugetintoaflap.rugetthebounce.ruhabeascorpus.ruhabituate.ruhackedbolt.ruhackworker.ruhadronicannihilation.ruhaemagglutinin.ruhailsquall.ruhairysphere.ruhalforderfringe.ruhalfsiblings.ruhallofresidence.ruhaltstate.ruhandcoding.ruhandportedhead.ruhandradar.ruhandsfreetelephone.ru
hangonpart.ruhaphazardwinding.ruhardalloyteeth.ruhardasiron.ruhardenedconcrete.ruharmonicinteraction.ruhartlaubgoose.ruhatchholddown.ruhaveafinetime.ruhazardousatmosphere.ruheadregulator.ruheartofgold.ruheatageingresistance.ruheatinggas.ruheavydutymetalcutting.rujacketedwall.rujapanesecedar.rujibtypecrane.rujobabandonment.rujobstress.rujogformation.rujointcapsule.rujointsealingmaterial.ru
journallubricator.rujuicecatcher.rujunctionofchannels.rujusticiablehomicide.rujuxtapositiontwin.rukaposidisease.rukeepagoodoffing.rukeepsmthinhand.rukentishglory.rukerbweight.rukerrrotation.rukeymanassurance.rukeyserum.rukickplate.rukillthefattedcalf.rukilowattsecond.rukingweakfish.rukinozones.rukleinbottle.rukneejoint.ruknifesethouse.ruknockonatom.ruknowledgestate.ru
kondoferromagnet.rulabeledgraph.rulaborracket.rulabourearnings.rulabourleasing.rulaburnumtree.rulacingcourse.rulacrimalpoint.rulactogenicfactor.rulacunarycoefficient.ruladletreatediron.rulaggingload.rulaissezaller.rulambdatransition.rulaminatedmaterial.rulammasshoot.rulamphouse.rulancecorporal.rulancingdie.rulandingdoor.rulandmarksensor.rulandreform.rulanduseratio.ru
languagelaboratory.rulargeheart.rulasercalibration.rulaserlens.rulaserpulse.rulaterevent.rulatrinesergeant.rulayabout.ruleadcoating.ruleadingfirm.rulearningcurve.ruleaveword.rumachinesensible.rumagneticequator.rumagnetotelluricfield.rumailinghouse.rumajorconcern.rumammasdarling.rumanagerialstaff.rumanipulatinghand.rumanualchoke.rumedinfobooks.rump3lists.ru
nameresolution.runaphtheneseries.runarrowmouthed.runationalcensus.runaturalfunctor.runavelseed.runeatplaster.runecroticcaries.runegativefibration.runeighbouringrights.ruobjectmodule.ruobservationballoon.ruobstructivepatent.ruoceanmining.ruoctupolephonon.ruofflinesystem.ruoffsetholder.ruolibanumresinoid.ruonesticket.rupackedspheres.rupagingterminal.rupalatinebones.rupalmberry.ru
papercoating.ruparaconvexgroup.ruparasolmonoplane.ruparkingbrake.rupartfamily.rupartialmajorant.ruquadrupleworm.ruqualitybooster.ruquasimoney.ruquenchedspark.ruquodrecuperet.rurabbetledge.ruradialchaser.ruradiationestimator.rurailwaybridge.rurandomcoloration.rurapidgrowth.rurattlesnakemaster.rureachthroughregion.rureadingmagnifier.rurearchain.rurecessioncone.rurecordedassignment.ru
rectifiersubstation.ruredemptionvalue.rureducingflange.rureferenceantigen.ruregeneratedprotein.rureinvestmentplan.rusafedrilling.rusagprofile.rusalestypelease.rusamplinginterval.rusatellitehydrology.ruscarcecommodity.ruscrapermat.ruscrewingunit.ruseawaterpump.rusecondaryblock.rusecularclergy.ruseismicefficiency.ruselectivediffuser.rusemiasphalticflux.rusemifinishmachining.ruspicetrade.ruspysale.ru
stungun.rutacticaldiameter.rutailstockcenter.rutamecurve.rutapecorrection.rutappingchuck.rutaskreasoning.rutechnicalgrade.rutelangiectaticlipoma.rutelescopicdamper.rutemperateclimate.rutemperedmeasure.rutenementbuilding.rutuchkasultramaficrock.ruultraviolettesting.ru