New Job: Head Count

[Fiye]

Alright. So.... I've been thinking of everything quite a bit. We've got two support jobs. Which leaves up at a bit of an up-set.

Tank
Paladin
Ninja
Warrior (Sucky, but can manage with /NIN)

Damage Dealing (Melee)
Warrior
Monk
Dark Knight
Beastmaster
Puppetmaster
Samurai
Thief
Dragoon

Damage Dealing (Ranged)
Corsair (Barely)
Ranger

Damage Dealing (Magic/Other)
Blue Mage
Black Mage
Summoner

Support
Bard
White Mage
Red Mage
Corsair
Summoner
------------------

So, i'd figure we need two things. More Ranged DD and a little more Magic DD.

As far as I can see everything into the Equation SE has made...

Dancers will be using a dagger/sword and dealing damage while using their WSes which will either a.) Buff the party, b.) Attack the monster, or c.) Do a mix of both.

Scholars... everything probably has no idea and won't until release. The key words, however, are Tactician and Knowledge. I'm going to take a while guess they will get their own version of spells, which will work in the form of books.

Beyond that, its speculation. What we do know, is that Scholars will work into Support.

Now, as much as I'm happy for all of this, I'm getting tired of Melee class DD. Oh sure, you can beat the crap out of stuff, but when you got 7 jobs designed for this, its got to end.

All I'm hoping is that the third job is somehow able to use an effect ranged DD. And will focus their attempts on using something besides a Bow or Gun. Perhaps a job focused on a new type of ranged weapon?

Maybe I'll get my wish, and it's a combination of Magic and Ranged DD. I mean where the basic idea is ammo is based on MP, and considered to be ranged attacks unless you decide to use specific spells which give your damage a specific element and drain more damage.

I think I just came up with an idea for a new job >,>

[Kintrra]

Actually, WAR belongs more in the DD section...they CAN tank, but they're not primarily a tank. Intended to be perhaps, but they fall terribly short of the mark 9/10 times. ._.;;

So that leaves you with 12/18 jobs as DDs (counting all types together), or 10 DDs and 2 Mage-type DDs (I count BLU in as a melee since most of their heavy damage spells are physical anyway), 2 tanks, and 4 support jobs....look at it that way and figure out what you really need. =\

[Fiye]

Actually, WAR belongs more in the DD section...they CAN tank, but they're not primarily a tank.

True, I'll fix that.

So that leaves you with 12/18 jobs as DDs (counting all types together), or 10 DDs and 2 Mage-type DDs (I count BLU in as a melee since most of their heavy damage spells are physical anyway), 2 tanks, and 4 support jobs....look at it that way and figure out what you really need. =\

Well, sadly, we got all the tank based jobs we need. One that works on avoiding damage, and another that soaks it up. The only other kind we could add in is one that reflects the damage. I.E. a blood tank, which would require a mage-type class background.

Honest, this is what they should have released.

1.) A "Blood Tank" that would work with a small amount of HP, but reflect a certain percentage of the damage onto the target.

I.E. They use a spell that negates and reflects back 20% damage onto the enemy. I'd be interesting to see what people would do with a low HP count and a middle-of-the-road HP count (I'd say around a RDM's amount)

We might see those guys being used against normal mobs more often than HNMs, but some boss fights would make them nice (I.E. Mammets or Goblin)

2.) A mage-based Ranger class that works on using something easily defined as a mana gun. Each shot consumes a certain amount of mana (Dependant on the gun they use) and the attachments (I.E. Elemental Buffs, Attack Buffs, or Debuffs) they use would add onto the cost.

Like, said Gun Mage uses a Spirit Rifle which does 20 Damage at a rate of 500 with a MP requirement of 20. Each shot costs 20 damage, and could be buffed up with Intelligence, and then an added attachment that increases damage at a short range. I.E. a splitter that requires 10 more MP.

I'd say its about as interesting as a Puppetmaster.

P.S. Blue Mages fit into the "Other" category. They're still a mage base, using MP to augment their damage. The moment they run out of MP, they're about as useful as a bard doing melee only.
@ Shirai's post below: Done, forgot about their buffs.

[Shirai]

You might also want to put summoner into the support role class.

Our buffs might not be as good as a BRD's or COR's buffs but we can still make a party more powerful.
(When played right.)
And apart from an HNM here and there I hardly DD.

[edit]
Gah nvm I didn't read right. XD

[Fiye]

Hm... you know what. By the description... I think I know what the scholars will be able to do.

They'll be able to read a target's informain. I.E. what element they're strong/weak against. Possibly what they drop, what you can steal, and /maybe/ their health points.

And I'm thinking they will be another bard class. From the way it looks like, they'll get a book pertaining to each class. I.E. a WHM book will boost Cure %.

[Keavy]

OK so we now have 20 jobs and from the looks of it, they're all we're gonna get so if we want more tanks or healers or whatever we're gonna have to find a way to make the current jobs fit those roles OR have SE make necessary adjustments to jobs to fill needed roles.

All told I think that five races and twenty jobs is well enough.

I think if we do get any more expansions they'll simply add onto what we have now through content updates. Maybe a WotG for Aht Urghan.

[Fiye]

We're going to have 21. They always came in a set of three.

Plus, seeing how everything is.

Dancer - Bastok

Scholar - San d'Oria

??? - Windurst

It just seems very... likely.

21 Jobs and 5 races is more than enough to keep on busy. Hell, 15 was enough. But, as we all know with the Final Fantasy franchise, there's never enough jobs. I'm just surprised Square Enix can introduce jobs that people will like and enjoy.

I'd love to see expansion packs crossing into one another, problem is... you can't do that. Well... its standard MMO knowledge to say "You can't do that"

And the cross-expansion pack stuff we do have is VERY lacking (Apocalypse Nigh is the only one we have really... until they add something for ToAU. Which should be in six months I'd assume).

if anything, Square Enix should think about an idea conceived by Funcom called Booster Packs.

I.E. a $10 or $20 expansion that introduces a line-up of missions, some new armor and weapons, and an NPC here or there.

Think of it like Valve's idea of Episodic Gaming. Less content released for a smaller price on top of the slowly releasing content in the current expansion for an extra buck.

And the bright side, people who like doing missions will pick it up.

[ScarlettPheonix]

If you read the history of Scholar on the POL site (Sugami posted it here too)- it started as a Windurstian job long ago, died out with the death of the Warlock Warlord Lungo-Nango and was later revived in Bastok (300 yrs later) by Gunther Shultz and then further added too and changed by future Scholars until it became what it was during the Crystal Wars.

No real Sandy influence anywhere I read- seemed to be all Windy/Bastok.

So, Windy- Scholar, Basty- Dancer, Sandy- ???

[Fiye]

Oh yes... it does seem to be Windy/Bastok.

*sigh* Oh well... so, lets see then. Judging by San d'Oria's grand order of knights, we can all assume they'll squeeze another Melee class into FFXI.

*Sigh* More Melee DD. You rock SE... [/sarcasm]

[Sugami]

Yeah Scholar is so going to be Windy, the first recorded Scholar seems to have been a Tarutaru as well

I'd make a separate group for Healers to stick WHM in there and probably SMN since that is what they do 90% of the time these days.

Scholar to me sounds like they can do the job of both WHM and BLM, making them both a Healer and a Magical Damage Dealer.

People have been asking for a Tank that holds hate through damage (kinda like WAR...) but I see the problem with that is that'd turn into an MP sponge unless they had a way to mitigate the damage.

I also think WAR/MNK could tank better than WAR/NIN, 3 shadows is nothing and once they're gonna the mob will rip through you with relative ease.

[Alya Mizar (Tsybil)]

I also think WAR/MNK could tank better than WAR/NIN, 3 shadows is nothing and once they're gonna the mob will rip through you with relative ease.

I have been saying for years now that the job of a tank is to HOLD HATE. From personal experience the WAR/MNK does this way better than the WAR/NIN, but my experience as WAR/MNK goes only to L 37 leveling my melee kitty's sub. After 35 I did have problems holding hate, but had no Enmity + gear. And I still held hate better than a WAR/NIN at those levels.

[Keavy]

Well, they could add something like Viking as the third job.

No matter what I will be leveling Scholar. As a sub for WHM and RDM and just because it sounds cool.

[Fiye]

People have been asking for a Tank that holds hate through damage (kinda like WAR...) but I see the problem with that is that'd turn into an MP sponge unless they had a way to mitigate the damage.

Thats where the paladin design comes in. But, with the way they work. They're more of a teritary "Cure the ninja" hate holding job. Also, Paladin/Ninja becomes a good fad as well.

My solution is to make a job based around taking damage and dishing it back. I.E. a Blood Tank. It'll negate and reflect a certain amount of damage. Making it useful for various mobs that might hit insanely hard.

I also think WAR/MNK could tank better than WAR/NIN, 3 shadows is nothing and once they're gonna the mob will rip through you with relative ease.

From WHM experience... I haven't had a problem with WAR/NIN once they got Utsusemi: Ni.

Of course, since I got into the habit of using Cure 5, I've never had a hate management problem where I ended up pulling the mob. And, when we got that kind of tank, I usually just haste the War/Nin to give him an advantage in the hate holding.

[Tianshii]

Hmmm That blood tank idea is quite interesting.

On the Viking, from what I head all that ever was is something like WAR that we already have.

Third job.. from sandy... hmmm...
Basty: DNC
Windy: SCH
Sandy: EGO

Not to mock San d'Oria, that is my kitty's nation of affiliation, but daaaggg do those home grown Elven have some serious ego's!

[Keavy]

I'll betcha that Scholar becomes the new hot mage sub.

As soon as I can I'm taking Scholar to 37 to play around with it on my WHM. I'll eventually take it to 75 but I think it'll kickass as a sub.

Also, since Dancer relies so heavily on TP anyone here think SAM will become its sub of choice?

[Finwich]

3rd job?

Cowboy ftw!

[Fiye]

*chokes* Cowboy >,>

...

*Imagines Elvaan wearing Cowboy suit*

*nose bleed follows*

I think... we oughta pass on that... it'd be worse than seeing an Elvaan male wearing a Tutu.

[Sugami]

From WHM experience... I haven't had a problem with WAR/NIN once they got Utsusemi: Ni.

That's because when they get Ni they're Lv.74 and there isn't a tank, just someone to provoke after which hate is pinged around the party.

Third job.. from sandy... hmmm...
Basty: DNC
Windy: SCH
Sandy: EGO

Not to mock San d'Oria, that is my kitty's nation of affiliation, but daaaggg do those home grown Elven have some serious ego's!

Agreed, I hate those stuck up xenophobic Elvaans

Also, since Dancer relies so heavily on TP anyone here think SAM will become its sub of choice?

No, because you know everyone and their mum will sub NIN even though it'll turn out to be a pretty useless subjob for it.

[Shirai]

Lately /sam has become a pretty popular subjob for 2 handed melee on my server.
Of course nin also still is a popular sub to use for damage negation.

@Fiye

I agree that for exp/merit a warrior can be a pretty good tank once they get Ni.
They can also be very good kiters.
However for straight tanking the bigger stuff they need a lot of very rare and extremely expensive equipment to become a good replacement for the traditional paladin or ninja tanks.
Next to that Ninjas and Paladins have more tools to get hate and keep it.
The "far eastern" jobs and Paladins also get more equipment to negate the damage they take with an added bonus that this equipment has some +enmity on it where warriors need to make a choice between one or the other.

As for dancer,
I agree with Sugami that this job will probably have a preference for nin sub.
As far as I could make out in the screenshots they will be Sword/Fleuret or Dagger wielders.
(Personally hanging more towards Sword but time will tell.)
As /sam is most beneficial for 2 handers I don't think it will be a likely sub for Dancer either.

3rd Job?
I'm not sure...
In current confirmations we've seen 2 new jobs which bring the total jobs to 20.
The macros are going to be expanded from 200 to 4000 divided over 20 "books".
This would make 20 jobs make a lot of sense.

What I'd personally like to see though...
Can we have more then 6 lines per macro? Please? Pretty please?

[ScarlettPheonix]

Could be they're still able to use swords, but SE has at least confirmed that they use daggers and all the screenshots I've seen has the dancer using a dagger. /nin could definitely be a the sub-job of choice but /thf could be as well like it is for BLU.

I just don't know enough about how the Dances are effected by TP to make a guess at this point. SE has been playing around with job (and therefore party ) mechanics so much lately that alot of us are still adjusting too it and WoTG just promises to bring more changes so I'm just taking a wait and see approach to the new jobs.

[Finwich]

Mithra in chaps? Yes please!

[Sugami]

Well it appears I was lied to all these years, Dual Wield I carries with it weapon delay -10% (I thought it was just added together), which means I need to do a bit of maths.

Taking my favourite Dagger of choice Jumbiya with a delay of 201. That gives 3.35 seconds for a single swing and 5.5% TP return. That means single wielding I need 19 hits to get over 100%, which takes 19*3.35 = 63.65 seconds.

Dual Wielding two Jambiya with the delay reduction of 15% gives a total delay of (201+201)/1.15 = 349 (truncated) = 5.8 seconds for 2 swings ( 2.9sec for 1 swing). Weapon delay of 349 carries a TP return of 9% ( http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/TP ). That means I'd need 12 "rounds" to reach over 100%, which takes 12*5.8 = 69.6 seconds.

Huzzah! I have proved that Duel Wield II in this case takes longer to attain over 100% when doubling up the same weapon.

Ergo proving /NIN is a big fat waste of space for Dancer.

There's a 99.9% chance that Dagger will be Dancer's main weapon (bloody well hope so I've put 2 merits into it!) but it is quite likely Sword will be a secondary. Still the only reason to use Sword would be for Joyeuse and Ridill (not likely Dancer will get the latter though).

THF as a sub will only be useful if Dancer either;
a) have a big spike damage finishing dance thing that works with Sneak Attack or
b) are able to use Trick Attack with the Provoke-like dance ability.

SAM as a sub will only really be for HNM when TP is required at the start. Despite the need of TP, 60% every 3 minutes doesn't amount to much when compared against Double Attack, not to mention the extra damage from /WAR and lack of Seigan and Hasso from /SAM.

It has been said somewhere that where Dancing does require TP to use it won't require 100% like WS and won't use all the TP either. Think of it as a kinda cutdown version of Meikyo Shisui (without the instant 300% boost ).

[Sugami]

Okay so I made a few errors in my calculations due to not understanding how TP gain worked with Dual Wield. Here's the correct version:

Reduced weapon delay = (201+201)*(1-0.15) = 402*0.85 = 341 (truncated) (yeah I used wrong calculation before it seems)
Reduced weapon delay per hand = 341/2 = 170

TP per hand = 5.0 + [(Delay - 180) * 1.5]/180 = 5 + [(170-180)*1.5]/180 = 5 + [-10*1.5]/180 = 5 + -15/180 = 5 - 0.83~ ~= 4.9

Attack rounds needed = 100/(4.9*2) = 10.204... ~> 11
Time it takes to get over 100% = 11*(341/60) = 62.7 seconds
For comparison single wield = 19*3.4 = 64.6 seconds

So Dual Wield II has a little over 2 second advantage, but wait! There's more to this than meets the eye, this isn't just single vs dual this is /WAR vs /NIN. /WAR gets the use of Double Attack, which has 10% proc rate.

Assuming Double Attack procs at least once means it will only need 18 attacks instead of 19, => 18*3.4 = 61.2 seconds.
If Double Attack were to proc twice you'd only need 17 attacks => 17*3.4 = 57.8 seconds.

Ha! Suck it! /WAR > /NIN not to mention the extra damage from Double Attack, Berserk and Warcry definately tops it.

[ScarlettPheonix]

it certainly could, but don't forget the other (and pretty important) reason why so many DDs prefer to use /nin, /thf or even /sam- they all have some way of mitigating damage/hate with varying degrees of success. Defender from /war just isn't as good at keeping players alive unless the main job is already a good survivor.

So depending on how strong Dancer is in the damage dealing arena /thf or /nin may still be the better choices for subs.

Not saying it will be- we all know how unlikely it is that they'll steal hate on any sort of regular basis using swords or daggers, just saying that there's more than one reason to sub /nin or /thf.

[Sugami]

Well yeah, obviously Utsusemi for survival but as you said there's like 1% chance Dancer will be able to steal hate so I pretty much ignored that aspect as it will be useless, unless Dancer will turn into a merit puller like BRD and a few good COR.

/THF does not work very well for Dagger WS, I'm sure you've tried it on RDM. Evisceration for 200-400, and get pretty much the same return with Sneak Attack. Marvalous.

Again unlikely Sneak Attack and Trick Attack will work with the dancing so there isn't really much use for /THF.

I see four main subjobs (and an extra occasional 5th) for Dancer;
1) NIN - for the mindless sheep
2) WHM - for more mindless sheep
3) WAR - for people like me who want to make the damage count
4) SAM - 60+ for TP burst
5) BRD - for the ultimate support

Incidentally that's what I think the order of popularity will be for the subjobs.

[Kintrra]

people don't /NIN and /WHM because they're mindless Sug, they do that because many times they're the sensible choices. I don't /NIN instead of /THF on my WAR because it increases my damage output, I do it because it keeps my ass alive.

I realize you seem to have a hatred of people using "cookie-cutter" job/sub combos, but a lot of times they're used because they're what works out best in the long run. /WAR might be better for damage output, but it's also better for receiving an ass-beating.

[Sugami]

WAR kinda need /NIN and they also can't sub WAR.

Mindless people such as 90% of the COR population and if you think Dancer will pull hate with Berserk and Dagger then you've got another thing coming.

Edit: Also I had a WAR/THF in my last party. Mainly because he forgot to change sub but he did alright and didn't die once.

[Shirai]

Like Kintrra I'd like to debate these as well.
For now especially used for this specific job as there's still so much unkown on what the intended roll by design will be and more importantly what roll people will give the job in parties.
Nobody knows yet, so until that every subjob remains optional.
MNKs, WARs, SAMs were designed to be the tanks.
PLD's were DD's.
NINs were offensive enfeeblers.
Interpretation by players has changed these jobs, and SE eventually redesigned them to what they are now.

[edit] And Sug,
could you put the pictures in your sig next to each other please?

[edit 2]
Make me a sig one day =P

[Sugami]

But they're not the same height D: is it possible to centre align the smaller one to the taller one?

Dancer may be somewhat an unknown but Ninja isn't. As a support job it gives two benefits and I've ruled out both of them for pretty much all instances.

Incidentally, logically thinking dictates Dancer can't be a merit puller without some form of Auto-regain as they'd need to dance to grab a mob, which takes TP. Where will you get the TP from? Unless they throw stones at mobs, guess if they had a xbow they could pull kinda like COR but they still need to sleep mobs (assuming they have a sleep dance), which again needs TP

[Shirai]

But they're not the same height D: is it possible to centre align the smaller one to the taller one?

I'm not sure, but at least your sig isn't longer then a long post now which looks a tad tidier.

Dancer may be somewhat an unknown but Ninja isn't. As a support job it gives two benefits and I've ruled out both of them for pretty much all instances.

Dancer

http://www.cactusleaftl.com/ffxipics/os ... /of07i.jpg
^During the Talk Section, they displayed a battle scene with Dancer. In the movie, the Dancer used “Drain Samba” to absorb HP as it fought the enemy.

Finally, all the guys who were (eagerly?) awaiting, were shown male Artifact Armor for Dancer. It was also revealed that each sex and race will receive their own sets of specific dancing motions.

The AF has the same basic design for males and females, with red and black colors with tights. On a female, the costume looks quite natural, but for males it’s a little hard to swallow. Anyway, there are four different motions to dancing, and each race has their own unique styles and finishing poses.

The Job has a variety of abilities and functions. “Dance” lets you heal party members and endow them with a number of beneficial effects. “Step” is used to enfeeble enemies, and adds an Additional Effect to the Dancer used in conjunction with “Flourish.” All these actions require the consumption of TP to activate. In other words, a Dancer must fight on the front lines, accumulating TP from the enemy.

Within “Dance” there are various moves like Samba, Waltz, and Jig. In the demonstration, we saw Drain Samba absorb HP and Haste Samba grant the effect of Haste. “Step” and “Flourish” are used together as a set. When using “Step,” the Dancer receives the bonus status of “Finishing Move,” and can utilize that condition to perform “Flourish.” All this new terminology is a little tough to take in, but the point is that “Dance” buffs members, “Step” enfeebles enemies, and “Step” is capped with a “Flourish,” allowing a Dancer to adapt their strategies along with the flow of battle.

The effects of “Flourish” range from a Provoke effect, Weapon Skill strengthener, TP conversion, and Skillchain openers. With this variety of effects, Dancer looks to have a great many benefits to front-line attackers.

Sauce: viewtopic.php?t=5509&start=15

As far as I read this Dancer will get to be more then just a support job.
In the last line I see support, DD, enfeeble and even tanking capabilities.
Nin wouldn't be such a misplaced subjob for this job.
The only thing I can't see confirmed is the weapon of choice.
And as I said before I highly doubt sam to become a subjob as most benefits of the sam sub are for 2 handed weapon wielders.

However even with all this confirmed, we still don't know what role it will become eventually.

Incidentally, logically thinking dictates Dancer can't be a merit puller without some form of Auto-regain as they'd need to dance to grab a mob, which takes TP. Where will you get the TP from? Unless they throw stones at mobs, guess if they had a xbow they could pull kinda like COR but they still need to sleep mobs (assuming they have a sleep dance), which again needs TP

I'm not expecting Dancer to be a puller, as the quote dictates Dancer will be most beneficial to the front line jobs.
I think ranged weapons won't really be dancer material.
Next to that this game is already overrun by jobs able to pull effectively.
RNG, THF, NIN, BRD, COR and to some extent even SMN and BST.

That said I now have my fears and doubts now I'm reading more.
Scholar: Beneficial to mages.
As far has been confirmed about scholar will be able to add very beneficial support in range of the mage section.
but what has been the problem as of late, the most beneficial job: the Black mages have been banned to the Wamoura and Black pudding camps for their exp where they don't need these buffs.
What I haven't seen though is: the ability to give any form of refresh.
What I have read so far about scholar they won't be giving any beneficial melee buffs which will most likely also ban them out of the normal exp/merits making the Scholar basicly the loljob of the new expansion.