The downsides of powerleveling our newbies.

Aony · Post by **Aony** » Sat Jul 30, 2005 2:26 am

Beforehand note: I dont mean to ramble on and on, and this isn't meant to be one of those l337ist bustings on the newbs. This is a statement based on my extended obvervations, some insightful thinking.

I was chatting with one of my friends, and the topic of the horrible parties in valkurm/qufim came up. And also if you notice, about every other party or more will have a power leveler, sometimes even two. Now, being the thinkers we are, we found a connection between the two, and found out that despite their intentions, the powerlevelers are actually PROMOTING newbiness. Think about all the differences from now and when we started the game and nobody was high enough to PL.

Healers

Now: Their job is simplified because the PL is healing everyone much better then they are, they just shoot off cures to make sure everyone's still alive until the PL gets to them. They dont have to cure much because the PL can handle it.

Then: They were the only healers there, and had to keep the party alive by themselves. They had to learn to keep the party alive with their cures, while still making sure they do not recieve too much hate, or they will die, and without their healing spells, so will everyone else.

Tanks

Now: The tanks will provoke whenever hate goes to their own mages. However this is not the case when hate goes to the powerleveler, which is more often. You've all seen it, and if you have ever been a PL, even said it. The tanks are told not to provoke off of the powerleveler, as the PL can take it better than the tank. They are taught to not do the exact purpose of why they are there in the first place!

Then: The tanks had to keep hate on themselves in order to keep the party alive. If they lost hate to the mages, they learned they must do everything in their power to get hate back on them. If they couldn't get aggro off a white mage, it would die and therefore so would everyone else. If hate was lost to a black mage, it would seriously increase the duration of the battle to the point where often the white mages would run out of magic, again, causing everyone to die without their healing powers.

Nukers

Now: Nukers basically can cast all the spells they can, as to do more damage and end the battle earlier. This is good, but it generates a large amount of hate. But it doesn't matter, because the power-leveler gets more by spamming high level cures. They never learn not to overnuke, and therefore have trouble later on.

Then: Hate for a nuker was a serious problem. Their spells would create more hate than most anything else the party could do. They would learn to wait a few seconds before casting another spell as to not get hate, getting them killed and (situation posted above).

Damage Dealers

Overall, not much of a problem for them. But same hate problems as before, but they do not gain as much hate as mages, due to a lack of hate-gaining spells and abilities.

Power-levelers often do this because they feel sorry that their low-level have such difficulty leveling up, and try to make them better through power-leveling. This is very good if everyone already knows their jobs well. However, if you power-level a party of people who do not know very well how to do their jobs, you are not making them better players. All you are doing is making them higher level newbs.

Thank you for your time.

Post by **Karou Ariyen** » Sat Jul 30, 2005 4:20 am

basically thats why i dont want to ever be powerleveled again. I've become a lvl55 n00b

Kyuiily · Post by **Kyuiily** » Sat Jul 30, 2005 5:01 am

I pl ever once in a while and I expect the group I'm pl to do their job and if their not I get up and leave them, if they can't handle and get upset with them, they can fight alone and without my help.

Baketsu · Post by **Baketsu** » Sat Jul 30, 2005 6:11 am

I only PL Linkshell friends or people when I am bored and it is only to get my healing level up.

Post by **Karou Ariyen** » Sat Jul 30, 2005 6:41 am

my take is this, yes i did call myself a n00b, why? well im not perfect, and i fug up a lot in battle, it took me a long time to learn to voke correctly, becuase PLing didnt teach me, now i PL sometimes for friends and LS members only, why? becuase i trust them to not slack off in a regular exp party

ScarlettPheonix · Post by **ScarlettPheonix** » Sat Jul 30, 2005 12:08 pm

My main is a lvl 50 rdm and the requests I get to powerlvl complete strangers are almost as numerous as the party invites I get

when not under /anon. I refuse to plvl anyone but friends or ls members for many of the same reasons that you said Karou. lol and because its just plain boring as hell. Cure Cure Cure....get beat on by mob....Cure Cure Cure...get beat on by mob somemore.... and then listen to the whining if I need to actually REST because my Convert timer hasn't reset yet..../sigh. If i want all that abuse, I'll just go find my own exp party

Kailea · Post by **Kailea** » Sat Jul 30, 2005 2:12 pm

heh I like PLing...but only when no noobs are in PT, if the PT is full of rank5s then yeah I am all for it, but if there is even 1 rank1 no sub member...then no dice.

Mrree · Post by **Mrree** » Sat Jul 30, 2005 2:54 pm

I wonder if PL'ing is the cause of n00bism at higher levels though. I have a case that might suggest that sometimes people are just not very knowledgable outside their own job...or maybe even of their own job.

For example: last night I get a party in Boyahda Tree. I'm playing THF and puller; it's my first time in there so I am going to be cautious. In our party we have a RDM who asks what elements spiders are weak to. -.- Just like Altepa, just like Quicksands Caves, spiders are spiders. Ice works dandy, try that out.

Like I said I'm playing THF, and my other highest job is RNG. I am pretty confident I know how to pull. If I say it's going to link, it probably will and if we don't have a Sleep to drop on the link that sticks? We're all going to zone and delay that much more. I haven't had problems with people pulling while I'm out looking since Qufim, but this RDM decides the XP isn't going fast enoough and pulls the link anyway. >_<

Brains? {Do you need it?}

We replace the RDM with a SAM. It's an iffy choice, trading general party support for damage dealing, but aside Refresh all the RDM is doing is Enblizzard and attacking so we might as well get more bang for the damage dealing buck. The SAM/WAR is brought in specifically to act as a first provoke so I can get SATA off onto the tank.

Aside: a bit about SATA
SATA has a 60 second timer. It usually provides a high damage melee attack when used from behind the target and having someone standing in front of me, who will receive the hate from a gargantuan attack. My personal best on SATAVB is 534 + 308, all glued onto a PLD to open a fight. SATA is a powerful hate control tool. However, I need to have the mob off me so I can run around behind the tank and land my attack. This is the primary job of the THF after level 30. If I can't land SATA, I am not doing my job.

The SAM decides that because I am "using SATA to pull" and he can't predict when I am going to be ready again, he doesn't need to provoke and is waiting on the NIN to establish hate. This of course defeats the purpose. I am not "using SATA to pull", I'm pulling with a boomerang. SATA is melee only. If I charge SATA before the pull I can get that one off and then another in rapid succession once combat is engaged. More SATA is better hate control, more damage, faster mob death, higher XP chains. If the system breaks down we all suffer. The SAM didn't understand this and I couldn't get it thru his head. He's 50th level and RANK 9!! >_<

How does someone get to level 50 without any understanding of party dynamics? How did he manage RANK 9?!

Maybe powerleveling. Maybe he bought his character. Maybe he's a gilseller in disguise (although he did have O-kote, so that doesn't seem likely). Maybe he's a gilbuyer and figures that if he has the uber-est of uber gear the fact that he sucks as a player doesn't matter. Frankly I have no idea.

This rant has gone on far enough. Friends, please don't power-level your friends or LS-mates. Powerlevelling makes you stupid. I cringe every time I get a PL party in the Dunes or Qufim. In fact you can't get a non-PL party in either place unless you make it yourself these days. It's just bad bad bad.

Aony · Post by **Aony** » Sat Jul 30, 2005 3:44 pm

Well, being the casual type, I haven't got any job above lvl 36 (thief) so far, so I dont know what it's like for all the higher levels, but I KNOW I get some serious newbs in my parties from time to time that have no idea how to work with me. One of them was stupid enough to ask what sata WAS. I forgot to check what rank he was, but god, level 35+ you should at least know what sata is....and it dont seem to be getting any better. I just hope it gets better.....and I dont care when, just please, make them have a clue...

Crispleaf · Post by **Crispleaf** » Sat Jul 30, 2005 3:59 pm

I was recently the vicitm of a party full of the powerleveled... at level 61, no less.

This was our party make-up:
nin/war, sam/war, war/nin, drk/thf, blm/whm, and me rdm/whm

We tried to find a white mage, or at least a bard, but none could be found. So, I was main healer.

We fought crawlers in the deepest part of Boyhada Tree. The first fight went well enough, but people had unreasonable demands. The black mage insisted on Refresh... normally, that would be fine, if I wasn't also the main healer. The ninja having Haste was all I really wanted to risk. But not only did the black mage insist on Refresh, but the warrior wanted Haste too.

So, I did as they asked, thinking I could point out it takes up too much of my MP when the fight ended. I only had 100 mp left when we reached that point.

Then the samurai made the first mistake: he immediately pulled.

I didn't panic, though... I stayed down, and calmly tried to accumulate as much mp as I could.

Then the black mage cast his most powerful spell, Fire 3, moments after the fight started. After he got hit once, I stood up, but before I could cast a healing spell, he was hit again and died. He promptly got upset at me that I didn't heal him.

Then the ninja blamed me that she didn't have hate on the crawler because I hadn't dispelled the crawler's defense ability... I thought trying to get some mp... any mp... was a better priority... but I didn't have time to explain that. And besides, it was the suicidal black mage's fault he died anyway...

Meanwhile, the ninja lost all her shadows and couldn't seem to get them back up... she was down to just over 100 hp. And I was out of mp.

Fortunately, Convert was back up to save the day.

So, as a desperate act, I used my convert macro... it uses Convert, Divine Seal, and Cure 4... and draws a lot of hate. I had Stoneskin up from a previous fight, I thought this would work as a distraction for the ninja to get her shadows back.

So, I use the macro, and the crawler is trying to kill me. But I have full mp now, so, once they Provoke the crawler off me, we'll be fine.

I use Blink while the Stoneskin is still holding.

The first hit, is for 0...

But the second, I'm taking damage.

A shadow disappears

A third hit for more damage...

The last shadow disappears...

A fourth hit...

(The dark knight asks someone to move in for a Trick Attack to get hate off me... no one moves)

A fifth hit...

(I'm standing there thinking "Come on you guys Provoke...")

A sixth hit...

A seventh hit... and I'm dead.

That's right 9 hits... and no one tried to get the monster off me... Like I was some kind of powerleveler or somthing...

I immediately home pointed and dropped the party, not saying a word. I'm sure they all think it was my fault everything went wrong and I got what I deserved too

Post by **Alya Mizar (Tsybil)** » Sat Jul 30, 2005 4:09 pm

I just dislike powerleveling. I don't want to be PLed, I have this terible fear that I am going to miss something. I don't like to PL others. I will try to beg off is a friend asks for one, but will graciously give in if they insist or ask real nicely.

Kailea wrote: heh I like PLing...but only when no noobs are in PT, if the PT is full of rank5s then yeah I am all for it, but if there is even 1 rank1 no sub member...then no dice.

Worst Dunes party I had in a looooong tome. levels 9 - 11. All Rank 5 - 6. All learing how to run a new job. All not realy succeding. A few with no clue at all. None remembering that they are not realy level 50+ anymore. All with the attitude that any EXPs lost at this level don't hurt at all.

A death or two every 4 - 5 fights even with a PL. NOT the PLer's fualt at all.

Mrree · Post by **Mrree** » Sat Jul 30, 2005 4:22 pm

Crispleaf wrote:I was recently the vicitm of a party full of the powerleveled... at level 61, no less.

snip my worst fears in high level pick up parties taken flesh

I immediately home pointed and dropped the party, not saying a word. I'm sure they all think it was my fault everything went wrong and I got what I deserved too

You know Crisp, I have had bad parties before, but that takes the cake. Even last night when I was explaning to the SAM the SATA strategy IN ALL CAPS FOR THE THIRD TIME ^^; .

My philosophy on pick-up parties is 'there's more where that came from'. I will never party with that SAM again and I will drop any party that invites him. I hope you find some better folks too! ^^[/i]

Kintrra · Post by **Kintrra** » Sat Jul 30, 2005 5:25 pm

Ya know...ya mention having so many problems with PL'ed players, but I'll be the first to admit, I've gotten many a PL over the time I've played (and haven't asked for it once) and yet, I've still become a decent player, or so I like to think. Granted, I don't know everything, but I've yet to have an issue with the party which was my fault. Though, I have to admit that I have had to pull a few nasty maneuvers to get points through people's heads that the PLD does need their MP. I had a THF who decided that I didn't need it that bad. I decided that he could tank for a while.

Kailea · Post by **Kailea** » Sat Jul 30, 2005 5:47 pm

well at least you are not a Dragoon, I get treated like I dont know anything every time I get in a PT, I always have the SATA strtagy explained to me and other things...and I am niceand just nod my head and say yes...but come on I am lv58 I know what I am doing -.-

Susannah · Post by **Susannah** » Sat Jul 30, 2005 6:20 pm

something like this happened last night. it has to do with noobs and dumb people, so i thought it would fit in here.

get a pt invite as my 31whm/15smn. my max mp is somewhre just over 300. after the first two battles, i realize that i use roughly 200mp a fight on chain 3. the puller is japanese so i auto-translate mp over 200 ok to pull.
then the war/nin (who refuses to tank because we have a straight ninja with lower defense, oh yeah the war was using swords or swords/dagger) starts pulling when i got 100 or less. luckily we have a rdm also so we go mp dry at the end of the fight. the pt leader finds a replacement for said war/nin. all goes good from then on, i get a level and 2k xp over. pt disbands everyone happy.
and just to note, after the war/nin left, he kept /tell me that he was so very very good at his job and i was a noob whm. i kept my side civil and he even went so far as to ask "what advice do you have oh 'uber' one". being polite i actually tried to help him with some honest adivce, but of course he just lol'd and blew it off.
whatever i say. good luck and take care. i proceed to ignore everything he says after this, replying with good luck and take care, until he just quits /tell. (i don't use the /blacklist save very very few occasions.)

so here's the kicker, i get a pt and it's the same rdm as the earlier pt ^.^, but there is the above war/nin. oh well. i warn pt leader i'm not on good terms with said war/nin, but that's the pt leader's friend. i warn the rdm to becareful.
so the pt goes to garbage citadel. after 2 fights there is a death. i raise, and they pull a bat. kill the bat, and they decide they want to camp gate. well whatever, i tell them i am raising some other people first. they say ok.
so i'm resting to get mp for sneak/invis after raises, and they start yelling "where's the whm! we need cures!" so this gives 2 deaths, the rdm and the sam.
i get to the new camp, raise rdm, she sneak/invis herself to avoid the many beetles and bats in this area. i raise the sam. then the sam pulls a bat. the rdm uses sneak/invis on me, and we watch the slaughter.
and of course they blame me for not curing them. whatever i say, good luck and i log outside citadel.

Mrree · Post by **Mrree** » Sat Jul 30, 2005 6:29 pm

Kailea wrote:well at least you are not a Dragoon, I get treated like I dont know anything every time I get in a PT, I always have the SATA strtagy explained to me and other things...and I am niceand just nod my head and say yes...but come on I am lv58 I know what I am doing -.-

That's bizzarre. I play both DRG and THF (44 and 51, respectively). I love having a DRG as a dedicated trick buddy. If I do too well on SATA? they just Superjump the hate away and we're good to go. I go out of my way to get a DRG in my parties.

Of course no one listens to me when I suggest it... >_<

Rakshasa · Post by **Rakshasa** » Sat Jul 30, 2005 7:14 pm

My most recent experience I can speak out for was leveling my NIN from 15 to 20. First off, I got my NIN to 15 as a NIN/RNG and I didn't even have Utsusemi: Ichi. The reason for this was that the party was so good that we stuck together from 11ish even moving to Korroloka after we were done with lizards and goblins in East Valkurm. I didn't see this as a problem since I always have a way to adapt quickly to the situation I'm in and I had no doubts from watching others and from logical thought about how to properly ninja tank.

At 15 when I had Utsusemi and the chance to tank, I got a few battles in before the PL came. -.- I found this really offensive since as the party went on he insisted on tanking the mobs and told us to never voke. When we moved to worms in Qufim I actually had a chance to tank and I did a decent job of it. I was not where I would like to be, but we had little to no problems. Only real problem is that the worms kept taking all my shadows off with one Stonega. I tried getting my Ninjutsu as high as I could in the dunes with Hyoton and all, but I have a bit of soloing to do with NIN before partying again. It'll give me a chance to refine my NIN skills as well.

Gwynn · Post by **Gwynn** » Sun Jul 31, 2005 4:46 am

the situation created by powerleveling isn't JUST mental unpreparedness. The fact is, you only get skills by using them. I was in a party last night as my War/Nin. Now a War56 isn't supposed to tank, ever... it just doesn't work that way. Yet, i ended up tanking because i had the skills to. Our party had a Nin/War. It became obvious that the NIN had been carried to that level. He didn't know how to use his elemental ninjitsu to hold hate or how ot layer his shadows without utsusemi:ni. On top of those glaring points, he was also taking an obsene amount of damage, and the mob never missed. Turns out that he had almost No Shield, Evasion, or parrying skills. They were mediocre at best. Turns out he'd been in a static party (which had a static PLer) since level 20 and was only a backup provoke. I checked his gear and he didn't have a lick of evasion gear. He had all +STR and +attack gear.

That is what PLing gets you.

As RDM62 I make it a point to never stupidly PL... If i know a friend is leveling a subjob or a new job in valkurm I'll stick around and level him... His skills are already capped for that job anyway, why make him "Suffer through the Dunes" any longer than he has to? But anywhere else? if i'm in the area and they're about to die.. sure, i'll lob a CureIV onto the tank... But sit and PL for hours? no way.

Mrree · Post by **Mrree** » Sun Jul 31, 2005 6:10 am

Gwynn wrote: Now a War56 isn't supposed to tank, ever... it just doesn't work that way. Yet, i ended up tanking because i had the skills to.

I don't have WAR past 30, so I'll take your word, but what does WAR do at 56? DD? I would have thought the role swapped back to tanking at that point from AF and other goodies.

Gwynn wrote: Turns out he'd been in a static party (which had a static PLer) since level 20 and was only a backup provoke. I checked his gear and he didn't have a lick of evasion gear. He had all +STR and +attack gear.

That is what PLing gets you.

{/cry}

Static PL...you know now I have seen everything. I thought the one PL I saw in Crawler's Nest was bad enough. Having a static party PL is so stupid it makes me cringe.

I am of two minds about statics. I love being in static parties because you get to know each other very very well, and you get to mesh your skills. I have only had a pickup or two that came anywhere near the XP/time performance of my statics.

Sometimes though you start to develop quirks in your game that come about from never leaving your static. Then is when partying with a new group (and preferably a different job) can help out a lot...rubs some of the rough edges back off and makes your game that much better.

Rakshasa · Post by **Rakshasa** » Sun Jul 31, 2005 7:48 am

I was thinking as I was driving today and I felt I had more to add to this subject. One of my favorite final fantasy pasttimes is power-leveling all the parties outside of Kazham. I never focus on one party specifically and I always look for those who are getting rather damaged. I protect from goblins that spawn in the area as well as links that may very well have occurred because they spawned after a pull.

There is occasionally the party that pulls a goblin before they are ready to fight goblins. This becomes painfully aware to them and I unleash massive cures, tanking it for the one battle. Parties do not generally repeat this.

The fun in it for me is that I get to constantly run around tossing cures everywhere, converting and killing my own prey. In this case I don't PL to have a party gain faster EXP - I do it to save people. When there's only one party or even two outside, my fun ends and I find something else to do.

I am strongly against a PL tanking for a party or any other action that would make a party member mostly useless. I'm curious to know what people think of this pasttime of mine, though.

Kintrra · Post by **Kintrra** » Sun Jul 31, 2005 10:42 am

Sounds to me like pretty much the same idea I have for my PLD once I get it to an appropriate level to do such things. After all, what's the use in having healing capabilities if you never use them?

Mrree · Post by **Mrree** » Sun Jul 31, 2005 4:01 pm

Rakshasa wrote:I was thinking as I was driving today and I felt I had more to add to this subject. One of my favorite final fantasy pasttimes is power-leveling all the parties outside of Kazham. I never focus on one party specifically and I always look for those who are getting rather damaged. I protect from goblins that spawn in the area as well as links that may very well have occurred because they spawned after a pull.

I think that's quite different, actually. My LS and I call it 'playing Angel of the Dunes' for where we first started it, basically grabbing bad links and otherwise covering people for bad luck. The major leveling areas are a pain, and you don't have a lot of slack at those level to deal with bad things happening.

For my 2 gil, that's completely different from power-levelling.

Baketsu · Post by **Baketsu** » Tue Aug 02, 2005 3:07 am

I like skilling my dagger skill with my Red Mage in Gusgen Mines(helping people get skulls int he process), the thing I had about being a Red Mage is that certain skills, like Parrying, Shield and Evasion can suffer!!! I am a level 48 Redmage and as a level 26 PLD I am skilling up certail skills, seems likt the EXP does a number on it. However, I am tempted next time I party as a Red Mage to Sub War and provoke so i can boost my shield and Parry skills, but since i am a level 48 refresh HO, I don't thing that is possible unless i get in a BLM mana burn party and have Tank! (I luvs me the Manaburn party!)

Tailfeather · Post by **Tailfeather** » Thu Aug 04, 2005 11:07 am

maybe im stupid... but i pl cuz i like to help people... ^^;; thats me..

Post by **sakono** » Thu Aug 04, 2005 11:39 am

eh when i have pl'ed (as its been a while sence i've been whm 31) i'd mostly make sure i got any links they may have gotten or and stray gobs thats close by.. but i've only pl'ed ls buddies so i sit and shat with them. make sure he doesn't die and raise any one that has. pl'ing a ls buddy and chating while there is nice cause he lets me know when there in big trouble as in the whm was stupid and ran out of mp in which case i'll help a bit. but only in emerginces.

bringing whm up to 31... teaches you about what cure spells to cast when what combo will get the most hate on you and what will happen when you do so said combos to save the pt by dieing right after the healing cambo.

but when you try to help out another whm in your pt in valk when lvling another job...well they just yel at you or thank you....

Tailfeather · Post by **Tailfeather** » Thu Aug 04, 2005 12:57 pm

sometimes i do pl random pts and so

Neoshinobi · Post by **Neoshinobi** » Sat Aug 06, 2005 6:18 pm

You all try to make it sound like your innocent, admit it you've all been down this path before.

I've only PLed for money, and even then I was doing a horrible job...I just don't ever see myself as standing around {Valkurm Dunes} all day helping {/random} folks get a lvl up.

(has a friend that actually does this, literally valkurm dunes 24/7 helping people...I often think theres something wrong with her >.> )

Post by **Yukira** » Sat Aug 06, 2005 6:41 pm

Heh, I purely enjoy helping others and do so without ever asking anything in return. It's kind of Yuki-chan's personal WHM ethics that just came up naturally in the beginning as I was still thinking what kind of person she is.

Although I must say I haven't PL'd much yet, I intend to do so for free in the future as well. This way I'm not forced to aid someone merely because they paid me, but I can come and go as I wish and use my own judgement in deciding what to do and when. Also I expect people to be friendly, patient and above all encouraging towards eachother. I like to be around people who are easygoing and friendly than with a group that doesn't allow even a single mistake and is really frustrated and unfriendly towards other people while having this awful 'EXP is all that matters' -attitude.

Heh, I realize myself that I'll be stuck with so-called noobs and below lvl 40s with this attitude myself, since I've noticed most groups tend to get more serious post 40. But that's fine with me, since I enjoy playing like this!

Tailfeather · Post by **Tailfeather** » Sat Aug 06, 2005 11:10 pm

You all try to make it sound like your innocent, admit it you've all been down this path before.

I've only PLed for money, and even then I was doing a horrible job...I just don't ever see myself as standing around {Valkurm Dunes} all day helping {/random} folks get a lvl up. Rolling Eyes (has a friend that actually does this, literally valkurm dunes 24/7 helping people...I often think theres something wrong with her >.> )

... im 150% honest damnit ... ive never plvled for money. and yes ive been helping random ppls... sorry if something is wrong with it <.< but i will keep on doing that... you cant stop me!

Aony · Post by **Aony** » Sat Aug 06, 2005 11:36 pm

Neoshinobi wrote:You all try to make it sound like your innocent, admit it you've all been down this path before.

I've only PLed for money, and even then I was doing a horrible job...I just don't ever see myself as standing around {Valkurm Dunes} all day helping {/random} folks get a lvl up. (has a friend that actually does this, literally valkurm dunes 24/7 helping people...I often think theres something wrong with her >.> )

Nope. I just recently got to lvl 20 whm and that's the highest mage I got. Never really PL'd anyone as of yet, I might PL my buddy Chris in the future. Of course, he's not on the game yet, and I plan on getting him a Gold World pass, so we'll get those hats and I'll more likely be party with him with the hat than PL him.