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WARNING!!! MINIMIZE MOD REPORTED TO HAVE KEYSTROKE LOGGER!
Posted: Sat Nov 06, 2004 1:09 pm
by Prrsha
http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?f ... 578&num=42
Seems like some of the window minimizers for FFXI have a key stroke logger on them and people have been using them to steal passwords.
I cannot stress enough NOT to use any 3rd party software for FFXI. Not only is it against the ToS in most cases but it can destroy your account as well.
Posted: Sat Nov 06, 2004 5:46 pm
by mozyr
This would be why I don't use a window minimizer. I'm paranoid.
-- Sarah
Posted: Sat Nov 06, 2004 11:53 pm
by Kopopo
Sigyn dear, I hope you read this.
Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2004 3:52 am
by Zodhi
Who wants their view of Vanadiel reduced to just a part of your screen, anyway? Bigger! Bigger windows! Bigger monitors! Mwa, hwa hwa hwa!
Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2004 4:20 am
by sheenia
good thing i use a PS2 to play, let'em try to steal that....MWAHAhahaha!
Re: WARNING!!! MINIMIZE MOD REPORTED TO HAVE KEYSTROKE LOGGE
Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2004 5:40 am
by Nivez
Prrsha wrote:http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?f ... 578&num=42
Seems like some of the window minimizers for FFXI have a key stroke logger on them and people have been using them to steal passwords.
I cannot stress enough NOT to use any 3rd party software for FFXI. Not only is it against the ToS in most cases but it can destroy your account as well.
after reading the post though, it has come to my attention that the actual ffxi minimizer from ffxi.archbell.com DOES NOT have a keystroke logger, but any self respecting programmer can take the software (it is open source remember) and modiphy it with one. its fairly simple to do, and could be very rewarding for a hacker.
personally i use the ffxi minimizer, my screen resolution is 1024x786, and my ffxi is set for 1024x786, soo with the minimizer on, my ffxi still takes up full screen.
now the next question is, why in the hell would i do that? doesnt that take away the purpose of the minimizer... well the answer to that is no, at least for me. the minimizer allows me to do one thing that i have wanted to do since getting ffxi, mainly alt+tab without killing the program, its nice to be able to look up a quest/mission that im doing without having to kill the program to do so. (i have 1 computer). that is the purpose of it for me.
now, i do agree, downloading some third party thingies would be very very bad, as it said, some of these are not safe at all, and i would be extremly careful with what your getting. and know that anything and everthing you click on the internet is a risk, even the (post) button here could have a nasty virus attached to it (dont worry it doesnt but its just an example). your computer isnt safe, its part of being connected, just watch what you do and you shouldnt have these problems.
Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2004 8:48 pm
by Prrsha
Square has already addressed the window minimizer thing and said that those programs are against the ToS. You are breaking your EULA by using them.
Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2004 11:25 pm
by Nivez
then im breaking my EULA, and technically it really isnt breaking eula, they just dont like it because of what the windower does and how it works... granted in my view it FIXES the program to work in a windows world, instead of just being a port of a ps2 game for computer. if square says its bad, ok, whoop de do for them, but for me, im not going to stop using it because they dont like it.
it isnt a bot, it isnt a hack, it doesnt give my character any advantage in the game (save the fact my computer is still my computer and not a ps2 while im using ff) and in that, i dont see anything wrong with it. if square pulled a hissyfit, they could probably find clipper or fraps to be a violation of TOS too, probably with the same logic.
*note, this is the ONE time i go against what SE says, mainly b/c the windower fixes their program to how i wanted it to work, its nice to be able to multi-task on my computer again, it is indeed, a computer is not a game console, so having it act like a computer for a change is nice*
Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2004 11:46 pm
by Prrsha
Nivez wrote:then im breaking my EULA, and technically it really isnt breaking eula
It is breaking the EULA regardless on how it is spun. Square had made it clear in past interviews. The reason why they don't like the game minimized is that it is much easier to hack with a hex editor that way. I know you are not hacking the game or doing anything nefarious but you are violating the EULA. Can you get banned for doing so? Yes. Will you get banned? Probably not but who knows.
It's their software and servers. You are just paying a fee to access their services. It's their right to dictate on how you use it according to law.
Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2004 2:45 am
by Kopopo
FRAPS is a program that when used with FFXI is a violation of the EULA. I use it anyway because I hate the built-in capture system.
Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2004 5:45 am
by Nivez
if you want to get technical, any and ever program you run that can/does/or is supposed to work with ffxi, that isnt something that SE makes, is breaking the EULA, if you want to get technical, then follow your wonderful EULA. if you want to abide by all the rules and not do anything that they says is wrong, then by all means do it, but for me, the benifits i recieve from using third party software outway squares rediculous policys. in short, ill do what they say to a point, when it becomes rediculous, then i dont follow; i consider banning all 3rd party programs rediculous, therefor i dont follow.
and back to the original topic, please edit your topic name, the standard ffxi minimizer does not have a keylogger in it, meaning your spreading false propaganda which is harmful to the reputation of the designer of the software.
Re: WARNING!!! MINIMIZE MOD REPORTED TO HAVE KEYSTROKE LOGGE
Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2004 6:51 am
by Prrsha
Prrsha wrote:Seems like some of the window minimizers for FFXI have a key stroke logger on them and people have been using them to steal passwords.
My original post
Notice that I used the word SOME not all. I also posted a link to the forum which explained the problem in more detail. Propaganda it is not.
Did I say I agree with all of Square's rules? No. I am just pointing that you are incorrect in your assumption that you are not violating the EULA. Legally speaking you are. It is everyone's own choice weather or not to use a 3rd party program and their choice to take the risk or not. Most people assume it is safe to do so and don't realize there could be consequences with using them.
I was just letting everyone know about the current problem with some window minimizers. As for the morality of using the programs that is up to the user to decide I guess. I'm just stating the current legality of it.
Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2004 9:44 am
by Nivez
the topic should read,
"WARNING SOME MINIMIZER MOD'S REPORTED TO HAVE KEYSTROKE LOGGER"
the way you make it seem, just by the title is biased toward your opinion
(and yes im being picky, but that is propaganda)
and, 2 other things, one i agree with you that it is the persons desision weither or not to use a 3rd party program or not, and second most people realize that there are consequences to your actions, weither bad or good. it is my opinion that i give people the benifit of the doubt and let them deside for themselves if the risk is worth it or not.
Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2004 1:55 pm
by Tivia
Prrsha wrote:Square has already addressed the window minimizer thing and said that those programs are against the ToS. You are breaking your EULA by using them.
And square is breaking a federal law by not allowing their software to be alt-Tabbed, EQ got sued for it and had to implement a way to alt tab, and Its only a matter of time before someone goes after SE.
But then, Im also a programmer, and have modified my POL heavily and FFXI to utilize the backgrounds I want, not the crap ones they provide and Ive modified the music files to every zone to suit my taste...( its so lovely having a .bgw converter
) So im definitally not preaching from any moral high ground here...I just know how to fight them if they try and give me static about it.
Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2004 2:49 pm
by Poge
I have POL set to automatically log me in whenever I start the program; no passwords needed. Doesn't that get around the keystroke logger?
Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2004 3:06 pm
by Nivez
poge, there is no keystroke logger, its a joke, a rediculous fallacy that people are spittiing out, if you get the origial from
ffxi.archbell.com
there is nothing to worry about
Tivia wrote:
And square is breaking a federal law by not allowing their software to be alt-Tabbed, EQ got sued for it and had to implement a way to alt tab, and Its only a matter of time before someone goes after SE.
really? is this actually true? (hopes to god it is) can you point me to a link about this somewhere, that has the actual law and/or what EQ had to do with it.
(if "crashing" the program when you alt-tab is good enough to satisfy the law, then its not much help)
Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2004 8:58 pm
by Prrsha
Poge wrote:I have POL set to automatically log me in whenever I start the program; no passwords needed. Doesn't that get around the keystroke logger?
Yes, that would get around the keystoke logger but I can't say the same for other passwords you may enter daily on your computer.
But if you DL the ultility from the website it is designed from it looks to be clean like Nivez said.
The logger is not a joke or fallacy. It is real. It has been reported on some hacked versions of the original program.
Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2004 9:41 pm
by Syine
You take your own risks running any software you find off the net, and the more illicit its purpose, the more risk I believe you assume, since if the author is unscrupulous enough to make a cheat, he may be just as unscrupulous about stealing your password.
That said, the minimizers are not really explicitly about cheating, though they are in a grey area, and if someone has indeed been distributing minimizers with keylogger code in them, that's an unfortunate situation. I trust the original archbell minimizer. As for others, I have no idea. Unless they're fairly clever, you can catch programs trying to make connections to the outside world with firewall software. If I caught my minimizer trying to make net connections, you can bet I'd deny it.
As for the question of whether it's right to minimize, I leave that up to you. Yes, Square forbids it. Yes, if they so chose, they seem to have grounds to terminate your account for doing it. No, they probably won't. And I don't believe there's a law against a game terminating itself if you Alt-Tab. If you ever go to court over this issue, and challenge the validity of the EULA, let me know how it turns out. Personally, I find the legal aspect fairly uninteresting. If you want to argue what Square has a legal right to do, tell it to a lawyer.
Morally, I feel quite entitled to use a windower. I'm not using it for bad things. For me, it is entirely equivalent to having two computers running at the same time. Square doesn't have a rule against owning two computers, and so I don't feel my decision to economize and use a windower so I can do the work of two computers on a single computer is any worse.
As for botting and hacking, yes, windowing and minimization do contribute slightly to their prevalence. It's always easier to interface with an external program if you can access its interface without quitting FFXI. However, if Square created the ultimate anti-windowing patch tomorrow, I bet we'd still see plenty of botters and hackers. It'd make it slightly harder on them, but that's only going to dissuade the most casual botters. I think Square's time would be far better spent engineering the game so that it's less repetitive and therefore less bottable by nature, as well as potentially more interesting. Mindless tedium doesn't make a good game, and if you make that a cornerstone of your gameplay, you will get botters.
Right or wrong, task switching is an ability that has been available to PC users since as early as 1984, and has come to be expected of modern computers. As far as I know, FFXI is the only current MMORPG that insists on preventing people from using that feature. It doesn't appear to be benefitting them that much, even during the brief breaks when they manage to kill off the windowers. I have hope that someday they'll stop punishing busy people with a desire to use their computers for multiple things at once. Maybe then they can finally focus on the real roots of cheating and work to eliminate the incentive, rather than the means.
Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2004 5:12 pm
by Kopopo
Poge wrote:I have POL set to automatically log me in whenever I start the program; no passwords needed. Doesn't that get around the keystroke logger?
I would say so, at least in theory. We should test it.
Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2004 5:34 pm
by Mystiana
I don't remember who originally said this, but FFXI's EULA actually oversteps the boundries of what it can and can't allow you to do. Square can still enforce it as long as they arent taken to court, but some of the game's EULA counters with DirectX's fairness of usage requirements. Go figure.
Since Square Enix is in Japan, good luck with that ever changing. International lawsuits take a few hundred thousand dollars to even make it to the books.
Square Enix didn't code in alt-tab functionality because they didn't want a 'pause' in an online game. It makes sense, but they should've disabled the key combo altogether. When I asked why they didn't, I was told "they didn't think about it." Huh, okay... patch? They patched the Windows key (though not alt-escape), after all.
Back to the point of the thread, what you run you run at your own risk. If you ran zonealarm or the SP2 firewall, you'd know when a strange program tried to send information to another party. I've never seen the windower do such a thing. It exits before POL has finished loading up. If you didn't have auto-login, it wouldn't even have TCP traffic to sniff, even if it was active. I believe Kopopo is checking if the TCP traffic is sniffable or not. Hopefully it's not... that would be a snafu. Either way, the windower directly from the site is completely safe, IMO. I've never had a problem, and I love it for being able to browse the MP site or a map site or anything else I might want to reference while playing FFXI.
Posted: Sun Nov 14, 2004 1:33 pm
by EvoLveR
Well I'm glad I use the PS2 and dont have to worry about any of this stuff
Re: WARNING!!! MINIMIZE MOD REPORTED TO HAVE KEYSTROKE LOGGER!
Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2024 10:07 am
by xaresity
Re: WARNING!!! MINIMIZE MOD REPORTED TO HAVE KEYSTROKE LOGGER!
Posted: Mon Apr 01, 2024 9:47 am
by xaresity