MithraPride

WAR kinda need /NIN and they also can't sub WAR.

Mindless people such as 90% of the COR population and if you think Dancer will pull hate with Berserk and Dagger then you've got another thing coming.

Edit: Also I had a WAR/THF in my last party. Mainly because he forgot to change sub but he did alright and didn't die once.

Like Kintrra I'd like to debate these as well.
For now especially used for this specific job as there's still so much unkown on what the intended roll by design will be and more importantly what roll people will give the job in parties.
Nobody knows yet, so until that every subjob remains optional.
MNKs, WARs, SAMs were designed to be the tanks.
PLD's were DD's.
NINs were offensive enfeeblers.
Interpretation by players has changed these jobs, and SE eventually redesigned them to what they are now.

[edit] And Sug,
could you put the pictures in your sig next to each other please?

[edit 2]
Make me a sig one day =P

But they're not the same height D: is it possible to centre align the smaller one to the taller one?

Dancer may be somewhat an unknown but Ninja isn't. As a support job it gives two benefits and I've ruled out both of them for pretty much all instances.

Incidentally, logically thinking dictates Dancer can't be a merit puller without some form of Auto-regain as they'd need to dance to grab a mob, which takes TP. Where will you get the TP from? Unless they throw stones at mobs, guess if they had a xbow they could pull kinda like COR but they still need to sleep mobs (assuming they have a sleep dance), which again needs TP

Sugami wrote:But they're not the same height D: is it possible to centre align the smaller one to the taller one?

I'm not sure, but at least your sig isn't longer then a long post now which looks a tad tidier.

Dancer may be somewhat an unknown but Ninja isn't. As a support job it gives two benefits and I've ruled out both of them for pretty much all instances.

Dancer

http://www.cactusleaftl.com/ffxipics/os ... /of07i.jpg
^During the Talk Section, they displayed a battle scene with Dancer. In the movie, the Dancer used “Drain Samba” to absorb HP as it fought the enemy.

Finally, all the guys who were (eagerly?) awaiting, were shown male Artifact Armor for Dancer. It was also revealed that each sex and race will receive their own sets of specific dancing motions.

The AF has the same basic design for males and females, with red and black colors with tights. On a female, the costume looks quite natural, but for males it’s a little hard to swallow. Anyway, there are four different motions to dancing, and each race has their own unique styles and finishing poses.

The Job has a variety of abilities and functions. “Dance” lets you heal party members and endow them with a number of beneficial effects. “Step” is used to enfeeble enemies, and adds an Additional Effect to the Dancer used in conjunction with “Flourish.” All these actions require the consumption of TP to activate. In other words, a Dancer must fight on the front lines, accumulating TP from the enemy.

Within “Dance” there are various moves like Samba, Waltz, and Jig. In the demonstration, we saw Drain Samba absorb HP and Haste Samba grant the effect of Haste. “Step” and “Flourish” are used together as a set. When using “Step,” the Dancer receives the bonus status of “Finishing Move,” and can utilize that condition to perform “Flourish.” All this new terminology is a little tough to take in, but the point is that “Dance” buffs members, “Step” enfeebles enemies, and “Step” is capped with a “Flourish,” allowing a Dancer to adapt their strategies along with the flow of battle.

The effects of “Flourish” range from a Provoke effect, Weapon Skill strengthener, TP conversion, and Skillchain openers. With this variety of effects, Dancer looks to have a great many benefits to front-line attackers.

Sauce: viewtopic.php?t=5509&start=15

As far as I read this Dancer will get to be more then just a support job.
In the last line I see support, DD, enfeeble and even tanking capabilities.
Nin wouldn't be such a misplaced subjob for this job.
The only thing I can't see confirmed is the weapon of choice.
And as I said before I highly doubt sam to become a subjob as most benefits of the sam sub are for 2 handed weapon wielders.

However even with all this confirmed, we still don't know what role it will become eventually.

Incidentally, logically thinking dictates Dancer can't be a merit puller without some form of Auto-regain as they'd need to dance to grab a mob, which takes TP. Where will you get the TP from? Unless they throw stones at mobs, guess if they had a xbow they could pull kinda like COR but they still need to sleep mobs (assuming they have a sleep dance), which again needs TP

I'm not expecting Dancer to be a puller, as the quote dictates Dancer will be most beneficial to the front line jobs.
I think ranged weapons won't really be dancer material.
Next to that this game is already overrun by jobs able to pull effectively.
RNG, THF, NIN, BRD, COR and to some extent even SMN and BST.

That said I now have my fears and doubts now I'm reading more.
Scholar: Beneficial to mages.
As far has been confirmed about scholar will be able to add very beneficial support in range of the mage section.
but what has been the problem as of late, the most beneficial job: the Black mages have been banned to the Wamoura and Black pudding camps for their exp where they don't need these buffs.
What I haven't seen though is: the ability to give any form of refresh.
What I have read so far about scholar they won't be giving any beneficial melee buffs which will most likely also ban them out of the normal exp/merits making the Scholar basicly the loljob of the new expansion.

As far as I read this Dancer will get to be more then just a support job.
In the last line I see support, DD, enfeeble and even tanking capabilities.

So what... 3 shadows for tanking? 3 shadows does not make a tank, think we've agreed on this about WAR struggling to be a tank past the jungles, I know mine has tried and failed around Lv.50 and I had the highest DEF armour available to me with DEF food at the time.
So what else would you use 3 shadows for? Nothing really note worthy, maybe for special occasions but we're talking about less than 5% of what you'd do.

I'm not expecting Dancer to be a puller, as the quote dictates Dancer will be most beneficial to the front line jobs.
I think ranged weapons won't really be dancer material.
Next to that this game is already overrun by jobs able to pull effectively.
RNG, THF, NIN, BRD, COR and to some extent even SMN and BST.

Oh I know, I was thinking about what Dancer might do in merit situations. When it comes down to it there are 2 1/2 pulling jobs for merit parties; BRD, COR (good one) and maybe RDM if you have a WHM healing and he/she knows what to do.
The reason they pull is quite simple, they have nothing else better to do really. COR and RDM to an extent can add onto damage but it makes more sense for a semi-DD to run off and pull than a full time DD.

Dancer is obviously not a mage and though some people seem to have read "new jobs addressing lack of healing" as "Dancer is main healer" I just don't buy that. The emphasis seems to be on support and sticking them in the front lines means they're doing some damage but that's where things get kinda hazey.
Dancer, though unlikely with Dagger, could turn into a bit of a Ninja (without tanking) and do pretty good damage whilst having the ability to support. Or they could slap Dancer with Refresh, Dispel and Sleep and cerment it into a kinda BRD/COR (more COR) role. Which brings us back to the pulling... who'd want a BRD that can't pull? Not me... why shouldn't the same apply to Dancer in that case?

Scholar: Beneficial to mages.
As far has been confirmed about scholar will be able to add very beneficial support in range of the mage section.
but what has been the problem as of late, the most beneficial job: the Black mages have been banned to the Wamoura and Black pudding camps for their exp where they don't need these buffs.
What I haven't seen though is: the ability to give any form of refresh.
What I have read so far about scholar they won't be giving any beneficial melee buffs which will most likely also ban them out of the normal exp/merits making the Scholar basicly the loljob of the new expansion.

I think that's a little harsh. Scholar I see as what RDM was meant to be, your goto man (or woman) if you're lacking a 6th man and just about anything will go. It seems like they can fill the role of a healer or magical DD or both. They're your magical 6th man spot.

Sugami wrote:I think that's a little harsh. Scholar I see as what RDM was meant to be, your goto man (or woman) if you're lacking a 6th man and just about anything will go. It seems like they can fill the role of a healer or magical DD or both. They're your magical 6th man spot.

Yes I know, currently I myself am only speculating from the stuff I've seen.
It might as well be that these are going to be very beneficial jobs to the game.
We currently don't know anything yet except for the little details SE has released to us from underneath the veil.

As far as I read in interviews between when WotG was announced and now every job is going to get a major revamp in this expansion as well.
New spells, Merited weapon skills? and a few other things.
Of course we will probably be overrun with new easy and hard to get armor with either crap or amazing stats.
So far every expansion has brought minor or major changes to the game in the way of how we build parties, how mobs are killed, where we party, what gear we use, etc.
So far we still know nothing and this discussion can go an entirely different route when the expansion has been out for a while.

Merited weapon skills mentioned? Or that just speculation on how to get new weapon skills that we have seen?

I'd hate for it to be merited as that'd no doubt mean 3 merit points to unlock and I'd want Polearm, Great Axe and Marksmanship (maybe Dagger too)

I wish to know: Is there anyone here who (like me) is a mage main that doesn't think Scholar will become the hot new subjob?

I heard SE confirm that the Grimoire effects will work as normal when Scholar is a sub so honestly, who wouldn't want it if it is true?

As WHM I could activate White Grimoire and get the benefits of cheaper spells, faster spells, and more effective spells plus I may even get an extra spell or two and compared to my current sub all I'm sacrificing is Auto Refresh and a MP Boost.

Subbing Scholar on RDM is where I think we'll really see the benefits, especially for enfeebles.

I've never been this excited about a new job. I seriously cannot wait to play Scholar and I assure you as soon as WotG goes live Keavy's only goal will be to unlock Scholar and get it to the dunes.

In fact, I think I still have some charges left on my Anniversary Ring and if I do I'm using them on Scholar. I want that job to 37 that badly so I can see its sub potential. After that, its going to 75.

Sugami wrote:Merited weapon skills mentioned? Or that just speculation on how to get new weapon skills that we have seen?

I'd hate for it to be merited as that'd no doubt mean 3 merit points to unlock and I'd want Polearm, Great Axe and Marksmanship (maybe Dagger too)

I haven't seen any interviews where they said one way or another how the new weapon skills will be activated- Shirai's speculation about meritting them is just as likely as the theory I've seen most often- that you can only use them in the past.

Personally I like merit only weapon skills- but then I'm RDM first, last and always so I'm most likely only ever going to have to merit two WS

Seriously, a meritted WS means that we could use it anywhere (well, anywhere not level capped) and not just in certain areas and to me that time well spent in gaining merits for it- if its true of course.

As to scholar- I'm looking forward to seeing what it can do/how beneficial it will be as a sub-job but I'm not planning on rushing out to get it right away unless its got some OMFGBBQ!!! trait/spell/ability that I'd be an idiot to not get right away.

/blu has been acknowledged as being a decent (situational) sub for RDM for over a year now and I'm just now starting to level it seriously, so I more than likely will get around to levelling SCH sometime in 2010

Tsybil wrote:I have been saying for years now that the job of a tank is to HOLD HATE. From personal experience the WAR/MNK does this way better than the WAR/NIN, but my experience as WAR/MNK goes only to L 37 leveling my melee kitty's sub. After 35 I did have problems holding hate, but had no Enmity + gear. And I still held hate better than a WAR/NIN at those levels.

Tanks have two jobs: hold hate is first, reducing damage taken is second. Damage reduction is more than just a matter of efficiency. It ties into holding hate. Damage taken reduces your hate. Depending on the fight, utsusemi can make a huge difference on damage taken even for sub/nin under 74 with only :ichi. The hate loss from a shadow eaten is typically so much less than loss due to damage that it might as well not exist.

-=-=-

BTW, dancer sounds good until you consider how hard it is to gain TP. Whether or not the job will succeed or not will depend hugely on the TP costs. My suspicion is that the costs will be outrageously high and pretty much make the job utterly pointless; eg. more than about 5 TP for a debuff means that you're useless as a debuffer for far too much of a fight. It also means that on fights without TP readily available (eg. HNM), Dancer will likely be told "get lost, you're pointless".

If Dancer can't debuff from outside melee range that makes them even more useless. The whole "TP" aspect of the job makes me think they just gifted us with a job that no one in their right minds would ever group with.

I'd rather have the new WS quested like the final ones, already have too many things to merit I don't want any more >.<

5TP ~= 1 Dagger hit, that's pretty small. I don't think it'll be too high and you're casting harsh judgement on a job that hasn't even been tried yet. Besides the obvious there's always a possibility of Auto-regain, it's been said that a finishing move can give more TP back and /SAM for HNMs too.

What about resists? Gain TP, debuf, resist, gain TP, debuff, etc..

The hard fights require debuff on demand, at range, and with short delivery time, not "after you gain TP" or "after you perform 3 separate JAs". The concept is fine. The implementation is littered with potential land-mines. I hope the job turns out to work well regardless of the issues. My bet is that the job will just utterly fail and require about 3-4 rounds of patching before people will be able to use it. They're going to need a lot of player feedback, and we all know how SE feels about player input.

OTH, I think the schoolgirl job has the potential for being overpowered and thus an instant win. It sounds like it's going to be a must-have SJ for any mage at the very least. I'm even wondering about it for a SJ to NIN. If it includes a hate spike spell as well as recast reductions for ninjutsu (which may not be there, since it's not magic and neither black nor white), the job would be huge for HNM tanking.

Fist off... LOL COWBOY!!! I'de love to see a pic of THAT!!!

Next-- that whole get lost lol<job> crap ... I cought a lol<job> convo in my ls recently and I had to say---
Just because YOU suck at a job doesn't mean everyone sucks at that job.
I think the favorite lol is @ PUP, well in my ls we have a PUP who effing WTFPWNS dynamis.
We have a DRG who does the same thing.
It's how you play the job/job combo's & to some extent gear.
I never turn away any job when building a party at any level.
I grab a tank, a healer and then fill in the rest. It's a lot of fun seeing the suposed lol jobs wreck shop. I also don't descriminate jobs to have the "perfect party set up". I exp to lvlup or merit, but I want it to be fun, not have a party full of arrogent snobs.

I'm excited about dancer, it seems out of place... Kind of like Summoner... Gotta sort of find your niche.
So far I do kinda see it slightly like summoner as far as buffs/d-buffs.
I do plan to try out /SAM. Since nothing shouts @ me as a sub for Dancer I wanna try out several to see how they work with it
I also don't wanna just slap /nin on it and go.. no adventure/learning in that.

Lastly >.>; it's all just speculation until the expansion is out and running.
So, I'm just gonna sit tight, wait for info on how to unlock dancer & head to san d'oria to test it out
*goes lookin' for funny cowboy pics*


edit:
if this were just a chocobo & not a horse...

Coming back on the "Merited" weapon skills rumor.

http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=QUwEAeIoFiU

The intro movie shows a few new WS types which aren't seen in the current ffxi and certainly are not the relic WS'.
(Compared them to the Relic WS seen in Altanaview.)

I am most likely mistaken about seeing it in an interview but hmmm..

What about resists? You can't resist yourself, it's not like the regain TP finishing step thing is Absorb-TP. It'll most likely be a buff that has nothing to do with the monster.

Unlike PUP, Dancer seems to be the first new job in this expansion, which means SE has had plenty of time to run tests and all sorts of stuff. When it is released it shouldn't require much tweaking (hopefully).

Ironically the only two jobs I advise against are DRG and COR, obviously I play both so I have nothing against the actual job it's just that if I don't know the player then they probably suck (sad but true). I'm also picking on COR because I want to have my best buffs enhanced.

We've all seen the new WS, was just wondering if it has been said how they will be obtained or whether that was purely speculation.

I don't understand all the DRG hate that people heaped on that job. When it comes to XP and non-HNM stuff, DRG is just amazing and has been even before the 2H'er patch. They just don't fit into any strategy for HNM fights; no melee really fits into those fights, but DRG more than most due to their narrow scope.

COR is just amazing. If you're OK telling a "bad" COR which rolls to use for which people, even a bad one is pretty nice. The hard part is finding someone who knows what the rolls do so they can tell the COR what to do. You really have to hang out with a god COR for a while to learn how one can be used.

We have a SMN|WHM|COR in our assault static. She's been on COR for most of the FLs and has made a fantastic difference. Rogue's roll for Hydra to cut off it's heads was really nice: took the fight from a 30m "we're taking too much damage and not outputting enough" to a 16m easy win. Upped evasion on Khimaira from ~17% to ~27% for the tank via ninja roll, which let us survive long enough to kill it. Monk's roll cut the nasty specials almost in half for both these fights.

Fighter's roll in XP is like 100-Fists! I love COR. I don't want to play it myself, but I love grouping with them.

I think gamefaqs is to blame with the loldrg campaign shortly after the penta-nerf and it spread unfortunately.

I've always liked drgs- they've never needed much attention in parties and don't have tissue paper for defense if they do take a few stray hits.

My ls has a drg main and I must say I absolutely when he can come to our fights (he has a lot of real life stuff that gets in the way)- Agnon+ Dia III is sexy as hell.

CORs take a lot off effort to play well and getting a good one is worth so much. Chaos roll ('specially with a DRK in party) and my personal favorite- Warlock's Roll are just crazy.

ScarlettPheonix wrote:I think gamefaqs is to blame with the loldrg campaign shortly after the penta-nerf and it spread unfortunately.

Being a GameFAQs poster I will agree with this.

But there is another piece as well. Polearm WSs kinda lack. And they don't SC well either. So back when people still SCed this was a factor. Even so I do intend to get Impulse Drive for my melee kitty who is SAM main.

The sad thing is, even before the 2 handed weapon upgrade, a well equipped DRG could outparse anyone in a party up to L 60. And that is WITHOUT the damage from his wiveren.

My melee kitty's Dynamis shell relied on SAMs and DRGs for heavy damage output, again from before the 2 handed weapon upgrade.

I don't have a SC chart in front of me but DRG is capable of opening both Light and Dark aren't they?

I was under the impression that it wasn't so much that they couldn't SC but that the WSs they could SC with weren't necessarily their strongest.

Also I'm fairly sure pre 49 Drg was good for Distortion? I may be wrong. Penta however doesn't do much good. Wheeling Thrust is pretty darn good however and that opens/closes Light. gImpulse Drive lacks a bit though, it's essentially a Double Thrust with slightly higher Str mod.

I did a great deal of grouping with DRG back in the renkei days when I was leveling my THF. DRG & THF work very well together for renkei. The other thing was that they were always easy to find when we needed another melee.

I recall one time I made a group of 5 JP players and me (thf). I had invited a WAR explicitly for Light renkei, which is done via Axe and had asked him via translator if he had an axe. When we got to camp, he started using G.Axe. I asked him to change, he didn't listen. I punted him and got a DRG. I got thank you tells from a couple JPs in party for doing it, too. I basically said (via translator): I'm sorry, Experience Points Party != Skill Up party. Kicked him, then invited the DRG.

Renkei started happening again, BLM MB'ing again, XP goes up, all happy. I miss the teamwork of the renkei days, but I do like the 25k/h you get in a nice spam party a lot more than the 6k/h a renkei group can do. Too bad renkei parties don't pay off more; renkei is one of the really unique things FFXI offers compared to other MMORPGs.

Pfft don't SC well, DRG can open Distortion the first time they get a WS can use it all the way through to Light with Wheeling Thrust. (G)Impulse Drive can make Darkness with Gekko and Scythe WS. Penta Thrust can close Gravitation but it wasn't really much of an issue since back then it sucked against anything IT or higher.

Like I said, nothing against DRG but I see so many poorly geared ones it makes Baby Jesus {/cry}. Why any would need to use one piece, let alone 3 pieces, of AF past 70 I do not know (at least full time) and others wearing Scorpion Harness, Optical Hat, every other accuracy item under the sun at 75... they not hear about the update?

As for CORs they range from the usually lazy gimpo who only has one sub and it's never the right one (/NIN or /WHM) who only do Fighter's, Rogue's and Evoker's no matter what the party setup is to ones who just have no clue... only able to keep two rolls going, and not very well, going /WHM with little to no MP gear and meleeing with an Archer's Knife or Trailer's Kukri then missing almost every single Slug Shot... being too lazy to double up on a 6, not knowing about Light and Dark Shot... the list goes on...
It's not a hard job to play, it just takes a little knowledge and a bit of luck.

Okuza wrote:I miss the teamwork of the renkei days, but I do like the 25k/h you get in a nice spam party a lot more than the 6k/h a renkei group can do. Too bad renkei parties don't pay off more; renkei is one of the really unique things FFXI offers compared to other MMORPGs.

The sollution to this is pretty simple actually,
they only need to increase the exp gain per kill on the renkei mobs of the old camps.
We'd have a lot less overcrowding on the AU camps as we'd have a lot of other camps worth it again to exp in.
Making exping on the weekends (Basicly the only days I have time to do so these days without having to skip LS events. >.<) worth it.
(I don't think I'll have to explain exping/meriting on weekends.)

They tried this with the signet update but this only works with smaller then 6 people parties.
Which is nice on pre 50 parties, but post 50 everyone heads to AU as soon as they can.

Another sollution would be make a freaking b*ttload of new exp/merit camps in WoTG.
But as they are recycled old areas I'm highly doubtful.
Can you imagine a whole alliance of 75's wipe to mobs in West Ronfaune? >.>;;;

I've already cleaned out my Screenshot folder for the express purpose of being in Sarutabaruta and taking shots of all the 75 dead people I see

Hehe well it looks like the WotG areas are mostly going to be used for this new "Campaign" type battlefield so there probably will be a flood of dead 75s in Saruta

Oh, besides giving Signet a boost in exp they should also give an exp boost if a skillchain is used on a mob. 5% for Lv1, 10% for Lv2 and 15% for Lv3, I think that'd make people start SCing again. And maybe another 5% boost for a MB

I do believe actually a good Renki style party will still work if you do the right mob. Isn't there a Mire or Reef camp spot where you work on Qutrub? Those fall fast to a good SC+MB blasting.

Shirai wrote:

Okuza wrote:I miss the teamwork of the renkei days, but I do like the 25k/h you get in a nice spam party a lot more than the 6k/h a renkei group can do. Too bad renkei parties don't pay off more; renkei is one of the really unique things FFXI offers compared to other MMORPGs.

The sollution to this is pretty simple actually,
they only need to increase the exp gain per kill on the renkei mobs of the old camps.

More XP per kill isn't the only solution. You'd just get more XP/h then in a burn party. The real problem is there are no high XP and high HP things to kill at 75. We need higher level (IT) things to slay so that there is enough time to build 100 tp and renkei+MB on a single critter without it being at 1% HP by the time the renkei goes off.

Well you could always use the first mob to build TP and WS+SC+MB on the second, that should pretty much instantly kill it.

The evil rams and big birds in the meadows have quite a lot of HP methinks, still around the high end of VT though.

Eviticus wrote:I do believe actually a good Renki style party will still work if you do the right mob. Isn't there a Mire or Reef camp spot where you work on Qutrub? Those fall fast to a good SC+MB blasting.

I <3 fighting those in a traditional party. So much fun doing 1k+ MBs on Light against them! There are good spots in both areas (Dvucca Isle and lots of places in Arrapago)- especially with a thf and pld tank.