End Game.

[Sugami]

The only way BST get into parties is by making their own or getting a friend invite because of their solo abilities, BSTs MPKing people in the past and people thinking they suck (which isn't true).
I do grin at seeing BST seeking, especially if they're sitting in towns waiting for that invite that will never come.

It's not so much a crime that a BST would want to party though. Soloing is rather quite boring and slower and harder exp than a decent party. Just as long as they go /WAR or /NIN and not /WHM

[Okuza]

I would't say a BST xp'ing in a group is a crime, I just don't ever want to see it in one of the groups I'm in. The fact that they're really the only job that can solo at all for a decent XP rate totally removes them from "need a group spot", IMHO.

I have grouped with them in the past and every time they've just sucked at grouping -- either wants the party to assist in pet-management or can't get renkei right and really low dps. OTH, there are a couple friends of mine that play BST a lot and we've done small-group mission/quest/NM things; they were really good at doing non-standard stuff and grasped odd tactics quickly.

SE has BST down for changes "that would make them more atractive for a group", which I find amusing. The fact that they can solo means that no matter how attractive they get, I don't want them in an XP group -- every single other job can't solo XP at all. Sooo, to make BST more attractive to group for me, they'd have to totally eliminate BST's solo abilities. I doubt that will happen.

[Sugami]

SMN can solo, DRG can too, PUP kinda can but it's a bit weak, RDM, NIN and THF but yeah not as efficiently or easily as BST.

[Okuza]

Well, SMN can via bombs. But the rest are more of the same nature as everyone else: can kill things just fine, but can't chain XP. BST can do 5k/h+ regularly all the way to 75 with spikes up to 15k/h at some levels with a rich bst-friendly supply (judging by bst friend in shell was always crowing or whining about his xp rate). SMN can chain bombs, but it's still pretty painful XP rate compared to group and there are many levels where SMN really is group-only due to low bomb-supply. MNK can actually XP solo pretty well up to about 35 (3k/h or so) -- this is so little known that you almost never see a MNK even trying it.

I think BST don't get groups for the reason I don't want them in a group, not because they make poor groupies. SE is off doing it's own thing again without determining actual causes.

Same thing for THF&DRG. Both don't get groups because of poor perceived DD and no other utility in an XP group. The thing is, well geared THF&DRG are great DD. The problem is the disparity between average gear and top gear. There just aren't ANY choices in those areas (at least for THF, dunno on DRG). Compare that to WAR and there's a huge difference. War has a choice of a great deal of nice cheap gear. Then they have even more choices for gear from H/NM -- all of which (even the top stuff) is a lot easier to get for war than thf.

It's what you can expect from a random pickup player that determines how people feel about a job. Can't expect much from a random thf or drg, unfortunately, and so the entire job is devalued. SE has a little of this figured out with the "well, thf is supposed to be harder to play", but they've ignored the disparity in gear availability there. People have told them over and over, but that's wasted breath.

[Alya Mizar (Tsybil)]

A well geared DRG and his wivern will usually outparse any DD in a party till 60. A top notch DRG will do that before his wivern's damage is added in. After 60, it depends. Personally I will continue to blame the disfavor toward DRGs on the long running loldrg campagin on GameFAQs.

It has gotten so bad for THFs that if we didn't have NIN tanks, they would be almost unemployable. Wow I finally said it, NIN tanks are good for something!!

Its starting to get bad for BLMs post 60 too.

As to soloing, a RDM/NIN can solo most anything, but it takes forever. 5 mins for 200 EXPs? That is sport, not EXPing. RDM/BLM solos just a bit less well. I need to get back to leveling BLU, I have to see how a RDM/BLU solos. I should probably level NIN too, but I flat refuse to level WAR. That becomes a watch out worms herrre I come.

[Shirai]

Summoners can solo more then bombs and at a pretty decent exp/hour range as well.


A quiet day at the mire.

As summoner I don't have a lot of trouble soloing VT/IT mobs.
My favorite soloing place remains Al'Taieu tho.
Mobs die in 1/2 Blood pacts at some pretty nice damage spikes and I have the camps all for myself.

And yes, I'm quite happy with a 3k/hr soloing rate.

As for smn grouping, smn can get a real decent exp rate by teaming up with other summoners or beastmasters.
But indeed, pre 65 we're pretty much confined to bombs and the luck of them exploding regularly.

(This is a smn speaking that soloed nearly 90% of the 51+ career to 75 btw)

[Okuza]

The Mire is absurdly nice XP when it's not overcamped. It's one of the reasons I HP in Nashmau. Random SMN+RDM duo grabbed once when I was running through on NIN for a little XP. We were doing almost 10k/h there with just 3 people. <3 Mire

[Sugami]

I can solo 1K/hour on Lesser Colibri, it's just very boring. I've heard can easily do 2-3K on regular Colibri and I know a few DRG who can chain Sea Puks for 3-5K/hour. A DRG duo could easily get 6K/hour on Sea Puks if they weren't whored all the time.

I guess people don't care about hate management when there's enough /NIN people in the party. I still prefer north camp in thickets with a regular party setup, mamool ja are more fun that wimpy puks.

Your average WAR seems to suck sees days but they still get invites just like poor BRDs, RDMs and CORs. Had a party with 2 WARs, I was pulling on COR/RNG but both WARs were too afraid to Provoke so I turned into an MP sponge

[Eviticus]

But the rest are more of the same nature as everyone else: can kill things just fine, but can't chain XP.

Funny, I distinctly seem to remember getting C5 solo off of Puks. <3 Dragon Killer + Ice Spikes.

[Tinacat]

..."well, thf is supposed to be harder to play"...

Hell no, THF is easy to play, only thing hard is the frustration if; the tank, the person you are behind (if it isnt the tank), and/or the mob moves


btw, most, if not all daggers past 65 have a higher attack # now.

[Pheonixhawk]

Takes forever for a Rdm to solo...well...anything. lol. Then again, that is the strategy. It's not about Meleeing or nuking the enemy to death. Its about outlasting them. Or at least thats how I see it. I also think Rdm gets most of thier power from thier enhancing spells, vice the enfeebling ones.

[Okuza]

THF is easy to play, only thing hard is the frustration

It's easy for the THF -- it's everyone else that it's hard on. There are two hard parts for THF. Getting a group and explaining to the group how trick attack works. You can skip the snick talk for burn parties. In the really old days, you had to teach the group about fuidama, too. "Ugh, don't invite a THF. She'll just lecture us about positioning all the time! Oh, {Hello!} {Nice to meet you!} {Thief}"

[Tinacat]

I do feel sorry for parties, since i would guess they would have to build a pt centered around the thf, if there is a thf.

[Okuza]

{Hmm.} For some odd reason my irony meter just pegged. <hunts around for a grey haired mithra thief to blame>

so great being a grey haired Mithra THF

This is one of the sublime truths of FFXI.

[Kintrra]

I prefer being a redhead...well...kinda pinkish really, but it counts.

[Sugami]

I'd really hope people would know how SATA works past 40 and more so past 50. Then you have to teach them about Assassin but I end up teaching the THFs themselves, DRGs and DRKs loved getting 60 so they wouldn't have to first voke anymore

Party I was in a few days ago the THF asked the NIN to stop moving around 'cause he was boning up TA, NIN then complains that it's a burn party and he shouldn't level THF and leaves I'm kinda ashamed to partly know this NIN.

NINs are a dime a dozen it's just that they're all off in their own epeen stroking parties

P.S. I picked white/grey hair 'cause I liked the contrast to our tanned skin colour

[Alya Mizar (Tsybil)]

Takes forever for a Rdm to solo...well...anything. lol. Then again, that is the strategy. It's not about Meleeing or nuking the enemy to death. Its about outlasting them.

All true.

I also think Rdm gets most of thier power from thier enhancing spells, vice the enfeebling ones.

Power = offence, so that is true, but without the enfeebling spells we would be in deep kimchee.

I do feel sorry for parties, since i would guess they would have to build a pt centered around the thf, if there is a thf.

I see it as building a party around a NIN and needing a THF for hate controll. But I know little about this. I don't like building parties, I perfer PLD tanks, I have 2 characters barely at THF 30, and have never yet been in a party as THF 30 so I have never done the SA/TA.

[Tinacat]

Then you have to teach them about Assassin

The other people had to tell me about assasin, cause when i got it, i didnt even know it existed in the game, or even got it.

I see it as building a party around a NIN and needing a THF

true, cause nin cant really keep hate.

[Okuza]

Well, NIN can hold hate -- just that most NINs don't build their gear that way (or can't afford to). You need all the hq enmity items and top weapons while leveling up. If you do that, you don't need a THF. I was usually a bit irked at having a thf in party when leveling up nin. I had to keep telling them to circle because it wasn't efficient to even have the off-voker take a single hit to setup a full snick. Seperate sa, ta, and ws is more overall dps for thf anyway unless you're in a renkei group.

Generally the only problem agro while leveling NIN was WAR after ws oddly enough (not mnk). The cheap wars leveled in AF1, which has an insane ammount of enmity (+15 full set). So, they'd pull agro and then brag about it or get irked that "nins can't hold agro". Duh. Take off the enmity if you don't want to tank.

Burn party, you take your enmity off again because it's better to have floppy agro or you end up tanking 3 things at once a lot -- nin has to keep voke ready to yank stuff off puller for sleeps. Still end up tanking 2+ sometimes, but a lot less often. Tanking 2-3 at once is not a good way to keep your healer efficient. Works better to just let whoever ws'd last tank it.

[Shirai]

Meh on whm and smn..

Just give me the traditional exp setups.
I'm happy with a 5k per hour relaxed party with one tank.
And no burn strategy with people that didn't bring echo drops and keep whining for Silena, cancel their haste/protect/shell/insert buff because the icon appeared conveniantly next to the Utsusemi icon, pull 5 mobs at a time because another party nearby might snag em which they will anyway and with bad luck pull another link of 3 or 4 mobs that wipe the party.
Or realizing that you got a whopping 3k in an hour because the mobs ran out with 7+ parties killing the same mobs.
Yes this is the situation on Titan, the "newer" players meet that zone and refuse to party anywhere else but there.
Sky? can you exp there? (Or even better "I don't have sky yet")
Uleguerand Range? HUH?
Where is King Ranpere's Tomb?

And IF it goes well I'm dead tired after 1.5/2 hours because I didn't get a chance to rest.
As you can read I do not like TP burn parties at all.
Especially Caedarva Mire.

[Sugami]

A NIN can keep hate with Elemental Wheel till 60 easily then Jin takes over in the hate keeping but definately isn't as solid as a PLD's but that helps the NIN a little. Lose hate for a second perfect change to recast then back in business.

Hehe I was intrigued about Assassin when I first heard about it. What's that? Makes Trick Attack do as much damage as Sneak Attack on its own? Then you still get THFs saying SATA+WS does more damage than TA+WS + SA but you're still sucking MP due to forcing a first voke onto someone who doesn't have shadows (or decent DEF for that matter).

I'm with Shirai on this one, Mire sucks. It's ALWAYS overcrowded and amnesia completely screws over my roll cycle, fly AOE isn't nice either. You can't get massive chains if all the mobs are over-camped!
Best bet is setup a regular party and hit the trolls, I'm sure SCs would work a treat on those and more so if you have people who can MB it.

[Okuza]

Trolls aren't the best xp, but I like 'em more than any other spot unless the rich areas are totally empty. They're relaxing. XP is good and pace isn't so damn frenetic as mire or thicket. The best troll groups have a BLM that understands it's better to nuke the stoneskin than wait for the melee to whittle it down. If BLM does that, he does't take any agro at all and still speeds up the fight by the exact same ammount as if he had done damage to the HP.

Same thing with non-tanking melee and WS. If they don't have nin, ws the stoneskin so they don't take agro works great on trolls. Trying to explain this to people that just want to see big damage hits is hard, though. Usually I don't try -- sometimes might make a little attempt at convincing. Got tired of party-education from playing THF in old renkei parties. The only thing I'll stop the group to chat about now is why blink tanks need to be hasted.

[Pheonixhawk]

Ive noticed that in parties lately, ive been made main healer alot unless we have a whm of course. I use my own little personal strategy to make sure I did everything and Still have lefteover mana. (btw the party setup example im using is nin, drk, thf, pld, and blu and I have used this method before on this setup)

1. Refresh yourself first always.

2. Protect IV Paladin. (or tank)

3. Haste Paladin

3. Haste Nin

4. Enfeeble.

5. Refresh Paladin.

6. Enfeeble.

7. Refresh Blu.

8. Haste Thf. (Blu has refueling)

9. Nuke X 1 or 2

When you do all of that, by the time they pull the 3rd Mob you should be completely out of mana. Then you just convert, refresh, drain mob, regen and heal on step 9 instead of nukeing. I throw out Cure spells inbetween any given step when I see fit. If someone is constantly getting hit hard and fast, then I use Regen + cure III. I never Cure IV unless their health is dropping faster than a fat kid in dodgeball.

[Shirai]

Mamook is one of my favorite places.

The camp is absolutely horrible to get to but once there there's a lot of choice.
Puks, Wyverns, Mamool Ja, Crabs and if you want to have a little fun and he's up Darting Kachaal Ja.

Another is the Garden of Ru'Hmet (sea),
those reraising Aerns also give pretty neat exp and go down fast.

[Sugami]

Why'd you have a NIN and PLD in the same party that's a wasted spot at that level, PLDs don't need Haste either.

Troll exp is better than 80-120exp every minute because there aren't any mobs to kill only really gone up against trolls 3 times, never had a BLM in those parties. I always stopped shooting when they did diamondhide don't want to waste bullets

[ScarlettPheonix]

When you're looking for warm bodies to fill a party slot people usually stop being picky and PLD/nins can DD pretty well if they're set up for it. Not as well as a WAR/nin or MNK maybe but they can hold their own.

I disagree with you on the Haste issue for PLD- its nearly as important to them as Refresh is when you start thinking about recast timers for their spells. I always try to keep Haste on my tanks whichever job they are.

The only times I tend to not want to Haste certain jobs are when its a traditional skillchain party and having a DRK, SAM or MNK become a MP Sponge because they're stealing too much hate. If they're ok without Haste, but turn into a gaping blackhole that I throw MP into with Haste- they can do without it or find another mage.

[Alya Mizar (Tsybil)]

Any tank holds Hate better with Haste. Were it available at levels that WAR/MNKs tank, I would have Hasted them too.

Lowering the recast timer on Flash alone is big, but it isn't just the Recast timers, it is the bit of extra damage as well.

[Sugami]

A PLD/NIN keeps hate worse than a NIN/WAR at 75, ontop of which they're damage is probably on par to a PUPs if not worse. Really takes a lot of effort and the right gear to pull off, I've yet to see someone do it. Still why /NIN? 'cause they take hate so much without Provoke? Offhand weapon won't give them as much as the Attack Bonus from /WAR not to mention Double Attack and Berserk.

As for Recast timer's Cures are ready whenever they need it not to mention there's someone else to Cure them. I have no idea what the recast on Flash is but they have plenty of other hate tools, doesn't really need to be any quicker.
Not saying they won't benefit from Haste it's just that it won't make all that much of a difference whereas a NIN requires their shadows and need the recast timer to be ready ASAP.

[ScarlettPheonix]

It still does make a difference and a noticable one to most paladins I've run across which is why I always haste my tanks^^

I was actually refering to TP Burn parties that had both a NIN and a PLD/nin in the party in my earlier post~ and like I said a good equipped PLD can put out some decent numbers, nothing flashy or uber like WAR or MNK, but still very decent and nothing to be sneered at.

[Pheonixhawk]

It still does make a difference and a noticable one to most paladins I've run across which is why I always haste my tanks^^

I was actually refering to TP Burn parties that had both a NIN and a PLD/nin in the party in my earlier post~ and like I said a good equipped PLD can put out some decent numbers, nothing flashy or uber like WAR or MNK, but still very decent and nothing to be sneered at.

I agree 100%