MithraPride

I managed to nab 4 wamoura cocoons over a week or so for my Mezraq and COR AF

I've got 2 stacks of Bronze Ingots before, might have been from the shop in Al Zabi though ^^

My cloth guild isnt camped at all, so I am able to camp it, and get all the wam cocoons I want, which I use for skill up, not for selling. (they go for about 4-5k on AH)

Sugami wrote:Any 3rd party program violates their TOS or whatever. This constitutes anything running in the background that interracts or interfers with FFXI

LOL. This is so not true. All of windows is in literal fact a 3rd party program. The verb interferes is grossly inacurate, too. For input/output, where do you draw the line? Device drivers are just programs, too. Most also have application level code running in the background. They are 3rd party applications and they most definitely interfere with FFXI. Can't use those?

An OS is a just a collection of programs. The concept of fair use legally nullifies that portion of a contract that tries to prevent you from using things you buy or lease in the expected manner for which they are normally used. Car leases, for instance, can't force you to use only gasoline from the lessor's shops. Windows programs can't force you to use only applications that the seller prefers or to prevent you from configuring windows in the manner in which you prefer or from running multiple applications simultaneously. The entire purpose of windows is to do multiple things simultaneously.

Also, their use of "3rd party" is a problem, too, though mostly just for them. They're saying the customer can do anything he pleases if he writes the code himself. He's 2nd party (or 1st depending on POV). This would go for the PS2, also. He could code changes for that according to the "no 3rd party" thing, though there he wouldn't be protected by fair use -- ps2 expects to be running only a single app at a time. Before they can win on a non-server effecting issue, they'd have to prove that he was using something he didn't write as well as argue that fair-use doesn't apply. Big can of worms for them there. If they can prove it, uh, how did they get the data? They don't have the legal right to search his computer and seize data on it. How do they know he didn't write it himself?

Legally, they're up the creek without a paddle if they target stuff like windower and the various input/output assist programs. Practically, though, they can get away with whatever they want limitted only by their own desire for profit. Alienate enough people and their game will spiral down and die. That's why they're only going after the ones they really can win in both court and public opinion -- speed, warp, bot, etc. (stuff that alters the server). If it doesn't have a server-side effect, they're balancing class action legal risks and business loss risks against the tiny practical risk that one of their victims will care enough to stand up and sue them.

Sugami wrote:I assume they're not RMT as the profit is quite small and it's over a long stretch of time too. 15K for bronze ingots, you'll get one stack every game day

The thing about vendor mining is that it's has zero overhead. When you combine it with a craft mule (that you're more careful not to be caught botting), you can drive out competition on a ton of items. Also, there are a number of vendor items that can be mined for big profit per item on straight resale. Uh, I'll pass on an explicit list of those -- I check 'em myself when I'm nearby. Almost never get 'em, but it's nice when I do.

Crafting commodities is nice steady income. It won't get you rich if you play the game directly, but if you had servants play multiple characters 24x7 that would be a very different prospect. Especially if the servants are free and have lightning fast reflexes and perfect timing to ensure they always obtains materiel at the cheapest price. Hundreds of millions of gil per day go towards commodities (tools, food, meds). Let's say you can snag 5% of that as profit with bots. That's 5m per day for doing nothing at all. I think 5% is pretty conservative, too. I suspect a good bot team could do more like 30% (30m per day).

Unlike fishbots and claimbots, they'd be very hard to catch, too. ><

Well when it comes down to it SE's word is law and if they say Windower is a 3rd party program that violates the TOS then it is, you can't argue with them they are God on this matter.

But would SE risk losing money from PC players who rely on Windower is the question.

I'd say no. SE is willing to lose money by getting rid of RMT and botters because that improves the image of the game and they can learn how to make RMT harder for their next MMO's.

If SE really wanted to get serious they'd hire Punkbusters.

Yes, SE would risk losing PC players who use windowers. I know that, because they already are. If you dance around infront of a GM and go, "I'm using a windower, whee! Look at me! I have acess to info others don't have!" I doubt you won't see Jail at least for a bit.

Windowers to them are already illegal, it's up to the players whether they want to risk losing play time(or their entire account) just for being able to save you the minute it takes to log out and back in....

Sugami wrote:Well when it comes down to it SE's word is law and if they say Windower is a 3rd party program that violates the TOS then it is, you can't argue with them they are God on this matter

Legally I can whomp 'em. But, yeah, practically speaking that's true unless for some reason I manage to get banned and also get mad enough to sue them. First would be pretty hard unless they get me for being in an alliance with someone that is using a hack; reports are that they now suspend&ban for just being helped by someone using a hack.

Second is a lot more likely than the first -- I have plenty of time and have always wanted to sue someone personally, but have never had a good enough reason. I can easily afford it just for the fun of it. OTH, there are other things I'd probably have to give up that are more fun to make time to sue 'em (lawsuits chew up time ><). So only like 5% chance I'd sue X maybe 1% of getting ban = .05% of an actual suit from me. SE is pretty safe on that front.

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OTH, I think FFXI is in grave danger in a different way. There are a TON of PC users. Like 90% of the people I know are on PC. Only a couple use PS2. I think the "cheaters" fall into several categories:

1. Recidivists & RMT. Yes, ban these -- they're always a problem.
2. Nice folk pissed off by Cat-1 who decided to fight fire with fire.
3. Naive folk who saw SE do absolutely nothing for years and figured it was OK.
4. PC users who want alt-tab (guessing 50%+ of PC users).

I want them to ban folks in category 1, but I think Cat-1 is *really* small -- maybe 5% of the ban-pie. If they touch even a single person in 2-4, chances are damn good it will be someone I know. Ban just one of them and I don't feel as much like logging as before. Why bother with a game that kills off my friends? Ban a lot of them and I'm gone. No one to play with anymore.

I've never seen a single person on my friend-list cheat, but they all use PC and most are in die-hard HNM shells. I bet *lots* of them do by SE's lights. Well, judging by the random kanji I see now and then from pure NA folks, a ton use windower.

SE now has someone who's entire job it is to ban people. If he doesn't ban people, he looses his job. High ban numbers = success and promotion to this guy. Chances are damn slim that he's going to leave Cat-2-4 alone. He'll go after everyone like a rabid dog. That will start a mass exodus as friend's lists are murdered.

I think SE basically doesn't care about the PC market -- I think they naively expected the PC market to act as a hook to entice folk to play on PS2 and were dismayed when it worked out the other way. Now they're trying a defensive move to keep PS2 people from switching to PC and leaving PS2 forever -- not just FFXI/PS2. They don't want console people to get a PC, love it, and stop buying the high-profit console games. SE has a tiger by the tail and they're scared.

I think they're making the wrong move myself -- I think they should sadle that tiger and ride it; embrace the PC. FFXI could be soooo much better than it is with a nicer UI. They're missing what I'd guess would be a billion dollar oportunity. A new snazzy modern UI (XML, user modifiable, Dx9/10, etc) would get tons of nice press all over and effectively equal the launch of a new game.

I think the ban-force has a very high risk of wounding FFXI so severely that it never really recovers.

Fool proof way to avoid banning, be in in Cat-5. "None of the above."

The only way to make XI RMT Safe is to ban everyone and shut down the game. RMT's will keep coming, there is no "RMT Free" MMORPG. Its like saying "We banned guns on airplanes, we're safer." No you're not safe, becuase ANYTHING on a plane is a weapon. A True safe airplane is with no one inside it.

So for anyone, including Square to say "By adding these rules and bannings we're RMT Safe", that is just not true.

I'm in Cat-5 the only reason I'd install windower is to use kana but I'm just too lazy to try it

To say SE only want FFXI players on consoles seems a bit silly, they opened it up to PC to get more money then again to XBox360 to get more money

You're also ignoring the other reason people use windower. To balance the game. Now before you got 'WTF?!' at me, let me explain.

Your average PS2/360 user most likely has their internet connection through a router, on which also lies their PC. Also quite possibly a wireless router as well, with maybe a laptop, but for the sake of fairness, we'll just guess that they've only got the desktop PC. So, given that this PS2 user now has internet access to go with their gaming, they now have access to Allakhazam, ffxi.somepage.com, FFXIclopedia, Mysterytour, and every other site of interest. Not to mention they've still got access to their AIM lists, Ventrilo servers, ICQ, e-mail and anything else web-connected.

Now let's look at your average non-windower using PC player. They've got....well...yep, looks like FFXI...and that's it. Can't alt-tab, cuz it kills the game. Used to be able to temp-log, but now we can't even do that. /pol, {Good bye.}. Now in order for us to get ANY info at all, we have to use /logout, then go back another screen from the title screen. All this, just to get to the same info that a PS2 user already has pulled up 3 minutes ago, and didn't have to log off to get. Not to mention a PC user has to shut off AIM or put up an away message and disable new windows from popping up, or one "bling!" out of AIM, and it's {Good bye.} to {Final} {Fantasy} yet again.


Need another factor? Anyone else read that nice little message at the screen right before full title screen?

"Please don't forget about your family, friends, work, and school."

Yeah. Real swift. Tell us not to forget about'em, but make it impossible for us to communicate with them if they're an online friend (which I have a lot of really). Yeah, you're really helpin your f$@#in message there SE.

Last I checked, I have a PC. A Personal Computer. Not a Final Fantays XI machine.

To put it bluntly... tough $#!7

Simple way to get around alt-tabbing is to look everything up, write down or print out before you log on. I've been doing it for the past 2 years I don't find it all that much of a burden.

Kintrra wrote: "Please don't forget about your family, friends, work, and school."

Yeah. Real swift. Tell us not to forget about'em, but make it impossible for us to communicate with them if they're an online friend (which I have a lot of really). Yeah, you're really helpin your f$@#in message there SE.

They mean IRL, not through MSN or something i.e. turn the game off once in a while

And not everyone has their PS2/360 in the same room as their PC, especially if its a family computer and its a teenager playing this game on one of the consoles. They're probably playing most often in their bedroom and not in the living room where the family PC most likely is.

I'm lucky enough to have our PC close enough to my PS2 to make it practical to be able to look stuff up while playing but there are still times where I'll just print a guide or a map out beforehand so I don't have to put a crick in my neck trying to get the info off the monitor while moving Phe around in game.

that's not always true. I always have laptop troubles. and this one is my b/f's work laptop so I only get it on weekends/evening. I dont have the luxury anymore of looking things up. and before I get crucified, let me say this, I rely on players with the windower. Does this mean I'm going to blab to the GM that someone has it? Nope. A. Its not my business if a pc person has a windower. B. ppl who have it that I know dont use the one with the 3rd pt tool attachments, and C. Well honestly, considering I play Star Wars Galaxies windowed, I know its convient.

Kintrra wrote:"Please don't forget about your family, friends, work, and school."

This is one I've always found amusing. Not because of the alt-tab issue, but because sooooo damn much of the things you can do in the game MUST be done on the game's schedule and simply can't be done on your own schedule. Want to do H/NM? Gotta camp it when it spawns, not schedule it when it's good for your RL. Want to HQ or skill a craft? Gotta schedule it for the right moon/day; VL over RL again. Need pop items for sky? Gotta spend long stretches of time camping them; more VL over RL. The basic game mechanics themselves say "to progress in FFXI, you must give up RL." So, do you believe what they say or what they do?

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Anyway, I'm Cat-5 myself, but that's not the point. What do you do when at a guess, 50-75% of your friends are probably in Cat2-4? It won't matter if you can still play, but your friends are gone.

Console games are far higher margin and much more profitable to sell than PC (like 400% margin). Not the consoles themselves, the games. The consoles are deliberately sold cheap in order to provide a means to make money selling the games. Any console game sale makes a lot more money for the seller than a PC game sale. This is why I think they're deliberately trying to keep PC less attractive than console (any console).

I think they're ignoring market size and just focusing on margin. They're also ignoring the press they get from PC users. The UI for PC is so bad it aspires to some day perhaps blowing goats. Even the most suck-up of game mags is very cautious in praising FFXI on PC. SE seems to think that keeps PS2 more attractive. What it really does is have PC people thinking, "Ugh, if they can't make a decent PC UI, there's no way in hell I'll ever by any console!" They're killing off potential customers. If they have a great UI (even if it's different than PS2), people think "Wow, this is nice, maybe I should try it on console, too."