anti gil seller petition

[Poge]

I know I'm going to get flamed for this but I actually support the gil sellers. They are nothing but greedy, capitalists who will bend the rules and screw the rest of us over to make a profit. But last time I checked that was called the American Dream.

Gil sellers are not only notorious monster campers. They're also high level crafters, mog house farmers, fishermen, etc. They provide valuable services to the rest of us by creating our high level equipment. Even the campers and fishing bots create a steady supply of merchandise that lowers the price. Besides, everyone has a fair chance at camping a notorious monster and gil farmers are actually at a disadvantage because regular players are more likely to work together.

The idea that selling gil creates inflation is a complete myth. Gil is neither created nor destroyed, it's simply given to another player. There are only two ways to obtain gil from the game (not from another player). Farming it off of beastmen and earning rewards from quests and missions. Conversely, gil is only lost back to the game when it's exchaged for goods and services. (buying from npc's, ferry/airship/chocobo fees, AH fees, Jeuno tax) Most of these fees vary with the number of people in that world. Thus Vana'diel has a stable economy.

As far as IGN and similar companies go, they should be entitled to every dime of profit they make. They are the middle man in the gil trade and facilitate buyers and sellers with a central location for which they should be rewarded a small percentage. In that respect they are no different from any other real life store.

The point is that Vana'diel exists in a natural, unregulated, capitalist state and the problems and benefits associated with selling gil are comparable to the general problems and benefits of capitalism.



For the record I have never bought or sold gil but I do intend to sell my character when I quit FF-XI.

[Alya Mizar (Tsybil)]

...They're also high level crafters, mog house farmers, fishermen, etc. Even the campers and fishing bots create a steady supply of merchandise that lowers the price.

Wrong. Fishbots supply NOTHING to the game save Moat Carp. There are only a limited ammount of, oh for instance, arrows that each crafter will make on their way up the crafting levels. The prices on big ticket items that are crafted are climbing everywhere.

The idea that selling gil creates inflation is a complete myth.

"Darn, Snipper's rings are up another 200K. Well that's only $15 more."

Gil is neither created nor destroyed, it's simply given to another player. There are only two ways to obtain gil from the game. Farming it off of beastmen and earning rewards from quests and missions

When you pull something out of the water you have created Gil. Selling valuable fish to NPCs creates Gil. Rusty Cap fishing / synthing to padded caps / NPCing them was such an inflationary problem that it got nerfed.

[Poge]

I did forget that you create gil by selling to npc's but the majority of people selling gil aren't getting it from npc's anyway. No one's going to sell a Monster Signa or an Dark Staff to an npc, they're getting their gil from the auction house.

Fisherbots are a completely different breach of terms and services and the fact that rusty cap method got nerfed is evidence that SE is aware of the problem and only wants to ensure that the economy remains stable.

Crafters do only produce high level items but the fact they can continue to make money by selling these items is proof that there's a demand for them. Besides, if you were level 75 and have a 99 in Goldsmithing and 10M gil in cash, what is your motivation to continue to craft high level items? Because the gil trade exists these high level crafters are given motivation to continue producing merchandise that we all need. The rising price in certain items is more a product of a lack in competition then price gouging.

Notorious monster campers can't establish a monopoly on most items because they can only be in possession of one item at a time. Thus they have to compete against each other, as well as the individuals who aren't regular campers, when they sell the items at the AH. This being said, there is no reason that an item in high demand that will only drop four times a day shouldn't cost hundreds of thousands of gil.

I'm not defending every individual that sells their gil online. I am simply recognizing that most of them also provide a service to the rest of us. I also don't agree with the practice of price gouging but if someone is impatient enough to pay 50% more to have their item immediately they are the ones being hurt. Also, price gouging would be much more of a problem if a valuable item only appeared at the AH once a week instead of a few times a day.

[Prrsha]

The problem is that this is a GAME not an online business in a game. The tactics that the gil sellers use are brutal. All they care about is maximum amount of gil in a minimum amount of time. As such they will exploit every loop hole in the game as possible. They used the rusty cap bug, not on occasion like most players (other players need time to level and such). They did it 24/7. They also train mobs and do other nasty stuff if they feel that there is competition.

They contribute nothing to the game and only harm those players in it. The only non-harmful use they have is as teleporters. They will be the downfall of this game, mark my words if left unchecked. Tension between them and the players is already escalating and many players have left because of them.

They know the EULA, they choose to ignore it. If square bans them or PCs train mobs on them, I will not be crying over it.

[Prrsha]

I did forget that you create gil by selling to npc's but the majority of people selling gil aren't getting it from npc's anyway. No one's going to sell a Monster Signa or an Dark Staff to an npc, they're getting their gil from the auction house.

See that's where that idea is flawed. Most gil sellers don't even use the AH for most items, they use NPCs. All they are concerned about is a gil per hour ratio. They can make quicker cash selling to an NPC then they will waiting for the item to sell at the AH. They also put far more hours into obtaining gil then regular players. As such they make gil far faster then they use it (remember, gil sellers don't use chocobos, airships or other money sinks at the rate most players do). When you have money getting added to the game faster then it can be removed, you have inflation.

I've seen many game models go down this road. I'm no stranger to it, trust me. I've even seen one game go belly up do to it.

[Poge]

I'm not saying that there aren't problems with gil sellers and their tactics. What I'm saying is that the good they do in producing needed items for the game exceeds the evil of their tactics. It's liaise-fare capitalism.

[Ambrey]

K, Im afraid Ive lost my patience now and I realize Ill prolly be band for saying this but Poge, your a fucking idiot if you support gilsellers! Squenix made FFXI as a game, not some big money maker for jackass hackers/programmers/schemers. We pay to play THEIR game, not to make money off of something they created! If I remember correctly, making money off of someone else's property or idea is ILLEGAL! Has everyone lost their freagin minds!? Its a game, play it and enjoy it! Don't misuse it for personal gain! You wanna go screw someone over, go try screwing urself! Jesus christ, be nice just for once if assholes in the gaming community could just learn to enjoy a game for the simple pleasure of playing it and not abusing it or taking adavantage and using it in a way that was not the original creators intentions! Hope all of you that do misuse and ruin the game for others all get what will eventually come to you!

[Poge]

First off I want to completely forgive Ambrey for her harsh words, I don't want to see anyone get banned and I don't think she should be.

Yes, selling gil is against terms and services but so is using window programs or 3rd party screen shots and a lot of cats are in favor of those. (Please don't make 3rd party programs the issue, I'm just making a point.)

Yes, if gil selling companies were in the United States or Japan they would probably be sued by SE.

And yes, a lot of people who sell gil are a$$ holes that program bots or train on other farmers. I don't support them.

What I am in favor of are the people who camp notorious monsters or high level crafters that sell items for a fair price at the AH and trade the gil for real cash. Even though they break the rules I think that these people provide a valuable service to the rest of us.

I knew I was going to get flamed for expressing this opinion but I only want to point out that not all gil sellers are bad people. I don't want to be attacked personally nor do I want my opinions to step on any paws.

[Prrsha]

I have yet to see a gil seller that is a crafter.

[mozyr]

Well, anyhow, it looks like the petition has been deleted anyways.

-- Sarah

[Prrsha]

It's there. The site is down down ATM.

[Alya Mizar (Tsybil)]

Poge, one reason I got into this game was:

I had read the articles on people making a RL income from playing Everquest. I wanted a game where this did not happen. The ToSA seemed to prohibit these practices.

Also; the Gil SELLERS are all American companies. See the IGE adds on the back of the gaming magazines? What most gripe about are the Gil FARMERS.

Everyone; camping NMs 24/7 in tag team relays is NOT against the ToSA. PKing is. If you want to see the Gil farmers booted, your best chance is anoy the **** out of them. Steal their spawns with a job/level that could never live through the fight, and call help. Go in high level and train masses of anoying, but not deadly mobs on them. Hang out with a DRG or BST so their <stnpc> macros are useless. Wait till they PK you. Report them to the GMs. If the GMs are usless, do not just post on the boards, write a P&P letter to Squenix, you know, the physical type that uses a stamp. Write the gaming magizines too.

[Prrsha]

Everyone; camping NMs 24/7 in tag team relays is NOT against the ToSA. PKing is.

Gil selling is against the ToS however.

[Prrsha]

Also; the Gil SELLERS are all American companies. See the IGE adds on the back of the gaming magazines? What most gripe about are the Gil FARMERS.

Just because they advertise in an American magazine, it doesn't make them an American company. I'll have to do some more research on IGE.

[Kopopo]

I talked with IGE. The transcript is on here somewhere but I don't have time to dig it up. I totally agree with Ambrea and feel that what was said NEEDED to be said. Anyone who in any way, shape aor form manipulates the game's economy for personal and real world gain needs to be beaten brutally. It pisses me off that I pay $13.95 a month to play a game that is becomming impossible to progress in because I'm unable to financially.

"Farm for gil then." people tell me. NO. I refuse to go out and waste time just so I can feed another's excessive greed.

"Report it to a GM!" I say f*** the GMs. Since when have they ever been useful in these matters? JP or CHI players bot or sell items and nothing happens. A US player mentions botting and the GM who's been spying on that channel warps you to jail. GMs are a craptacular waste of time.

[Dukuji]

"Report it to a GM!" I say f*** the GMs. Since when have they ever been useful in these matters? JP or CHI players bot or sell items and nothing happens. A US player mentions botting and the GM who's been spying on that channel warps you to jail. GMs are a craptacular waste of time.

*Raises her glass high in Kopopo's direction*

Cheers mate!

[Tivia]

how is it impossible to progress without farming? I mean honestly farming NMs is not much different then farming gils off low level mobs..is a timesink killing mobs.

I wont participate in the argument of gil selling anymore I do not see the point, outside its pointless to try and target the sellers when its the buyers that are the problem. in the end it is impossible to stop either.

I will say this though.

To those complaining about money being difficult to make..have you ever tried crafting? Fishing? or even simply playing the market by buying items at low prices off bazaars and reselling higher in the ah?

Ive done this in Every MMORPG I have ever played..I start out in a new econ crafting..amazing money crafting makes in a newer game..or even an ongoing game..saving ingredients as you hunt and turning them into something as you go..FFXI made this easier then any other MMORPG ever...Can you name another game where you can craft anything anywhere so long as you have the ingredients? I cant..all the others I know you have to go to town, or a crafting area...Only in FFXI can you craft stuff as you get it off mobs. so you can hunt for exp and craft at the same time. The other thing I do IS play the economy, I do this more then anything..I search bazaars all the time, I watch for people shouting sales of items, then i turn around and sell it in the AH for a little to alot more money..Sure it takes a bit longer but its worth it to me. I cannot count the number of times I have bought items off a player in the game and turned around and sold it for 50-100k profit because they simply wanted to get rid of it. FFXI has the AH where you Do not have to be online to sell..Take Advantage of it, most games require you to have your character online to sell.

Ive done this for years..In alot of games..Never have I ever had money problems in a game...never.. I listen to people complain about not having enough money all the time..and without fail they do not do any of the things Above i mentioned..the common complaint.."But that takes away time from leveling" Well no kidding? Really? Ya Think? Of course it does, the Game designers wanted it that way. You either get levels and power, and suffer monitairly until you max the levels and can focus on money then, or you take the time to make the money and slow down the leveling...Either way you invest the same amount of time in the game in the long run..Comon you cant honestly think they dont think of keeping players involved in the game as long as possible? I mean how long would you play a game where just by level grinding you got all the money and items you needed to the point of when you maxed your levels, you really dont have much else to do?

Want to know where I come from? I play a white mage/summoner...I have all my spells, all the top gear..Ive spent unbelieveable amounts of money on this stuff, and I am fully prepared to spend the money to fully equip my char again at 51, with all the best that level has to offer..Does this cause me to freak out and wonder where the money will come from? nope..not at all..I already have it..I earned it through some of my crafts..and alot of buying and selling..I buy anything out of a bazaar I can make a profit on...I dont care if its 1000g or 100,000g profit is profit. I can log on, and fish..make a few hundred k in a few hours...or I can craft make the same in about the same time frame..Or if i dont have alot of time, I peruse the bazaars buy up a bunch of stuff, slap it in the ah and come back to it 90% of the time being sold...Most american players do not have the patience for this..explains why most of them are broke..you can Easily make 2mil + a week doing nothing but buying and selling with a investment of 50k...Easily.

Actually, Im not done...

Tivia's Game Economics 101

I heard a couple people complaining that the gil sellers are causing the prices on high end items to rise.. Not True..Its not gil sellers I can guarantee that..

Supply vs Demand..

In order for Price to rise, Demand must be Greater then the supply. This is the basic premise of economics..It is a Fact.

Now gil sellers, are farming items...keeping the supply high..at best the price remains steady, at worst it falls as there is more supply then demand. If an item is farmed 100% of the time maximizing its drop rate, taking into consideration that any item will only drop ingame at a Set rate coded into the game, then the supply is At its Max, now If the demand is still greater then that supply then the price inflates, however If the item was not Farmed 100% of the time the demand is still there but the supply is lower thus the inflation would actually be much much higher.

Now concerning the specific inflation of an item..There is also a factor called controlling inflation and this is where players like myself come in. We are investors...We invest money into the economy expecting to control the supply, and drive a profit. We purchase as much of a particular high demand item as we can, attempting to fully control the supply of it available on public channels, and then we set it at the price that we desire it to sell for. Of course this is where the investor title comes in, It is not guaranteed profit...if the market falls on an item and we have a bunch invested in it..its a loss..It is a gamble in a sense. Lets use an item as an example..

Ochido's Kote ~ a Few months back these were selling for 250k on my server. There were approx 5 pair in the ah at any given point fluctuating slightly and the demand was steady. So I decided to invest and gamble. I bought the entire AH out..and relisted them for 300k..they all sold, So I continued to buy them all out of the ah and Relist this as well as visit the campers at the mob spawn location and offer them cash on the spot so they cound continue their camping..I was now controlling the supply of these. Over the course of 3 weeks I raised the price, Now due to arrangements with the campers getting cash from me on the spot and not having to wait, I recieved all of these that were being camped for those looking for profit only, and Buying it form people in the AH trying to undersell to make a quick sell ( those hoping people would bid the max ) I maintained a profit level and continued to increase the price by the time it was said and done, I was buying them at 300~450k and selling them to 640k. This can be done With any item..Easily.

the point of the above example is that blaming the gil farmers for price inflation is wrong..its not them..If you need to blame anyone, blame me. I drive the prices of items up all the time because I am an investor..ITs what I do..I dont sell my gil..I loan a good portion of it to friends..the rest I spend on my char or put towards making more money..have I lost money investing? Sure lots of times its part of the game.

[Prrsha]

I wont participate in the argument of gil selling anymore I do not see the point, outside its pointless to try and target the sellers when its the buyers that are the problem. in the end it is impossible to stop either.[/i]

It is not possible to stop the buyers, but it is possible to stop the sellers or at the very least have them drop their NM farming tatics.

[Tivia]

Edited my post slightly..fyi...

Btw the gil farmers mostly dont realize this..but I make far more money using the above tactics then any gil farmer.

The best NM gils farmer might make 500k a day..averaged out..When I am actively investing and selling, I can make in excess of 3mil a day averaged out..Its a simple matter of patience and using ones brain to take advantage of the fact that the majority of players Do not have the time, desire, or care to maximise their profit..they just want to get rid of it now. For this reason alone I love American players, they make my gaming experience so much more enjoyable.

[Alya Mizar (Tsybil)]

/cheer for Tiva.

Someone else who understands economics!!

[Tivia]

/cheer for Tiva.

Someone else who understands economics!!

And thats exactly the point. I use the system provided in game, other players inherit laziness, and simple economic principles, and I make a killing.

While players can complain that I am driving the price of items up making them more difficult to afford by controlling the supply to the given demand, they cannot blame in in any manner of exploiting or abusing the game, in a manner not intended by the designers of the game. All it requires is for one to use their brain a bit.


a Trick I use that I have never given out to anyone..The one question I recieve all the time is, how do you keep track of the prices of items to know what is a good deal or not?

I created an excell spreadsheet, and set the columns to Average the numerical data I imputed in out.

Then I list the prices of the item I am tracking from AH price history alone and Use that average as my reference for what I am most likely to sell the item for, that way I know approx the max I can spend on an item and still make a reasonable profit. The spread sheet does not need to be complex..you can have just 1 column if your only tracking one item at any given time. once you have the average, determine the minimum profit you want to make, deduct that from the average selling price and that is your max purchase price.

Code: Select all

Avgprice - Profit = Maxpurchase

Very very simple...

[Dukuji]

First of all, Tivia, thank you for well written write up on Supply and Demand (S&D). If y'alls understood that then welcome to:


Dukuji's Economics 202 class: Models of Competition in a Gaming World

For S&D to work like Tivia outlined, the right type of model has to be in effect. S&D is a concept that is best observed in Perfect Competition Model and even fairly well observed in a Monopolistic Competition Model. There are four characteristics that have to be in effect before S&D work correctly. These are:
(1) large number of small firms (in our case a large number of normal players with no significant economic power, we have lots of these.)
(2) identical products sold by all individuals, (crystals being a good example)
(3) freedom of entry into and exit out of the industry, and (meaning that anybody can sell the item of discussion, this also means that they can in a fairly easy manner obtain the item of discussion)
(4) perfect knowledge of prices and technology.
In short, these four characteristics mean that a given perfectly competitive individual is unable to exert any control whatsoever over the market. This is S&D at its greatest. These are the conditions that have to happen before Tivia's Game Economics 101 class can be observed as true. If you want a more in depth explanation, here it is:

The demand curve for the output produced by a perfectly competitive individual is perfectly elastic at the going market price. The individual can sell all of the output that they want at this price because the individual is a relatively small part of the market. As a price taker, the individual has no ability to charge a higher price and no reason to charge a lower one. The market price facing a perfectly competitive individual is also the individual’s average revenue and, most importantly, their marginal revenue.

The above explanations of S&D and Prefect Models work well with crystal sells. Crystals are fairly elastic item. But on high priced, rare, items, such as the Ochido's Kote, (a VERY inelastic item) the above models of competition do not exist. (Does anybody need a lecture on elastic vs. inelastic?) Instead we are subject to an Oligopoly model. For the most part, S&D goes right out the door. Wave goodbye.

An Oligopoly is defined as, "A market structure dominated by a small number of large firms (in our case a small number of individuals who can get the item), selling either identical or differentiated products, and significant barriers to entry into the industry." Okay, the key points are (in case you missed them):
(1) an industry dominated by a small number of large firms (again in our case, individuals who are able to get their hands on a rare item that is not easily obtainable by the general populace. Either they buy the item and intend to sell or they get the drop and intend to sell.)
(2) individuals sell either identical or differentiated products, (in our case this has to be a rare and hard to obtain item.)
(3) the industry has significant barriers to entry. (the fact that the items cost well over 500k and are a rare item that is dropped to a few individuals who intend to sell (cough, cough, gil sellers), causes these barriers.)

Okay, two kinds of people get the Kotes, those who intend to sell and those would don’t. If you get the drop and are going to keep the item then you play little role in the market of that item. If you do sell the item then you are part of the Oligopoly and since a majority of the people who get the drop are usually a small handful of individuals that are working together they are the major supplier of the Kotes. Therefore they have control over the supply and can HEAVILY influence the supply of these items. DEMAND BE DAMNED! This is an inelastic good we are talking about and almost everybody is at the mercy of these people. S&D, S&D curves are now out of whack. Because in an Oligopoly model they do not have to worry other people entering their market because they have majority control and the average person can not get their hands on a pair of Kotes, they dominate the industry and for somebody to enter their market would take a lot of power (gil in this case). Tivia, you proved that an Oligopoly exists in that industry by your little investment trick with the Kotes. That was not an easy market to enter (cost A LOT, you took a heavy risk). But to you it appears that S&D market is at work but it is not, because of the four characteristics that have to be in place for an effective S&D market to function. (See above)

Oligopolistic industries share several behavioral tendencies, two important ones to us, include:
(1) interdependence, and
(2) rigid prices,
In other words, each oligopolistic individual keep a close eye on the decisions made by other individual in the industry (this is interdependence and happens when you check the price on a rare item), and are reluctant to change prices (rigid prices). These behaviors are typical of the rare high priced items, such as the Kotes. This type of behavior does not happen in markets like the crystal industry.

In time, if the gil sellers still maintain their oligopolistic control over many of the rare drops the cost will raise higher and higher. Even to the point where Tivia may say it’s too high. Not because of demand alone but because they are the sole suppliers (or damn near and close enough for comfort; in other words their market isn’t going to be suddenly flooded). This means that the average man has to work harder and harder and harder to make the money necessary to purchase that item. I don’t mind working for my equipment but when the price doubles on you in a month (it happened to me) it makes it very discouraging to keep going.


/sigh . . . I hope this helps. There are some very simple economic principles that lots of people understand. But what people don’t understand that the type of model GREATLY affects how these principles work.

[mozyr]

*agrees with Kopopo*

Gil buying/selling doesn't affect the economy, eh? Then why is it that a $1 K gil piece of armor I want to buy is selling for $20 K when it sure isn't worth that much (we're talking about a freaking leather gorget here, people...)

You can't tell me the economy hasn't been affected by stuff like this with people inflating prices and whatnot.

-- Sarah

[Gwynn]

Okay, Real world economics is one thing. Lets do some objective shopping. and i'll use the stroper's chyme problem from Bismark to demonstrate, coupled with my own experiences.

How often does a Stroper's Chyme pop? every 15 minutes. How often does it drop? With TH2, about 2/3s the time. so i can only imagine normal drop times. So. we have it dropping the archer's ring about 4 times an hour.

Not very rare is it? Easily hunted, Very desirable item. Neccessary for anyone who plans on living by the bow.

So? it's not very rare but highly desirable. Supply is good, demand is high.

Now, Leaping Boots and Emperor's Hairpin. VE and Lizzy pop on a roughly two hour cycle. They drop leaping boots and Emp.hairpin roughly 1/5th the time, each. Even with TH2 it only pushes it up to about 1/4th. So, per day we're looking at maybe three of each, per day.

Moderately available. Easily hunted. desirable for many jobs. Supply is moderate, demand is high.

Now, We look at peacock's charm. Argus spawns once every three to four days. It drops roughly half the time. So, that's One peacock charm every week, on average.

Extremely rare, no?

Very desirable item by.. well.. everyone.

So? It's VERY rare, and Very desirable. Supply is v.Low, demand is Very High.


Now, lets compare.
Bismark server prices.
Leaping Boots: Moderate Supply, high Demand : 450,000
Emperor's Hairpin: Moderate Supply, high Demand : 250,000
Archer's Ring: High supply, High demand : 500,000
Peacock Charm: V.LOW supply, High demand : 6,500,000

You can technically get, and sell 4 sets of leaping boots a day, in optimal conditions. That would only come out to 1.8Mil. Hairpin, roughly 1Mil a day.

So, considering a roughly three day workout for argus, and a drop, things balance out between the leaping boots and the charm.

However, look at the rings. That's half a million gil every 20 minutes, optimally. That's 1.5 million gil an HOUR!

So, you tell me. Are all those guys named Jerry (The Jerries are 12 characters who formed an alliance at level 1 to power level themselves to the point where they could camp NMs in shifts. I even have a picture of all 12 of them ganging up on Lizzy when they were all level 5.) camping Stroper's chyme in ordelle's REALLY camping to get the item, or are they cornering the market on the item to drive up the price?

[Tivia]

Indeed you are most correct Dukuji, I was heavily generalizing though as I have done that with items that are far easier to aquire But the specific example I gave you are correct in you summation.

However fromt he S&D perspective, you can very easily buy tons of common items off Readily available bazaars and sell them for profit in the ah. Ive done this with everything from crystals, on up. Most frequently I do it with jewelery and craft items, as you will find crafters with tons of things on them, cheap because they need the money/space for skill ups, and by being patient you can turn these items over in the AH's for profit, still investing and taking a risk, but not nearly as great a risk as my Kote example. Again this is how I started and how I have operated every game, I buy an item off anyone anytime I see it cheaper then the cost Average and I turn it over for a profit.

Now referring to the gilsellers, yes they could indeed do what I am doing, however the majority do not, as the more time they spend selling an item, is less time they are spending farming, thus less overall profit for them. The Average gill farmer is more concerned with Quantity, then anything else.

100k now, $5 in the pocket is better then 150k $8 in the pocket in 3 days, when during that 3 days they could be making that 100k several times over.. This is a rough example but I think you get the point I am making.

The thing that seperates players like myself, and the market increases we drive, Vs what gil sellers drive is very simple. I am investing, I do not care if it takes me an hour or 2 weeks to sell an item, I am after a specific profit level and I will wait until i get that profit. Gil sellers (mostly) Do not have that kind of time, its about money in pocket right now, they cannot afford to spend 2weeks selling an item. As a result of this, I would prob say that a good portion of my biggest profits came off gil sellers. I dont know for a fact they were selling gil, but when someone Auctions in shout an item for 100k, when its got a price history of 180-200k and none listed, I am not concerned what they need the money for, in my eyes I just made 80-100k+ because someone was impatient, which is perfectly fine by me. but again, Im not debating that gil sellers affect inflation, I am simply debating by how much. From my experience players like myself affect inflation far more then the sellers do.

However Ill look at it from another perspective, in a sense the gil sellers do affect inflation because, while they are mostly selling cheap to players like myself. The gil buyers are willing to pay the higher prices that I set because they aquired their money easily. But again not always true, in the end inflation happens because someone is willing to pay it.

Now that I have deviated badly, back to my point, any player can easily make a ton of profit buying and selling...I used a high ticket item as an example and going back and reading I realized it deviated from my original point.. so here is a better example..little shorter.

Same tracking system

lets take Balance rings as an example.

Lets assume the AH price is 18k, ( I have not looked in a while this is just an example )

The bazaar price of people skilling up, and making these is going to range from 13k~18k, Purchase them at the low, put in the ah for the high..simple as that, I have made perhaps thousands of such turnarounds..for all kinds of profit levels..Anyone can do this there are tons available.

[Dukuji]

It is true that a market savy person can turn a decent profit by simple investing. The market on these items tend to be much more elastic and have a wider range of buyers and sellers.

When it comes to making money, I have made most of my money through the ways Tivia has nicely outlined. I make most of it (well made, not playing very much atm) through one of three ways; of which I'll share (even though we are now slightly off the topic of this tread ):

(1) Doing what Tivia does. The old buy low, sell high. Most of this comes stuff I've shopped around for, bought it, used it, and then sold it for a higher amount. (I bought a full set of Eisen gear for about 50k, used it, then sold it for about 120k) This is not a sure fire way to making gil. Sometimes this method will back fire on you or the expected profits will be just too low. Another thing is that other people may be onto the same “investing” that you are on and therefore you’ll have to keep your ideas fresh and keep your items varied.

(2) I use my craft; smithing. I do this by: (a) watching the market on smithing materials and products like a hawk and know what I can turn a profit on; and (b) making smithing consumables. The second way tends to be the more steady income way but the lower ROIC method. (If I mine my own ore I get an even higher ROIC at the cost of time.)

(3) Farming . . . bleh, not at my level. I don't do this as a major source income.

Okay back to the subject of this post -->

Now, even though many people have tricks and gimmicks to making gil the fact still stands that SE has a problem with outside businesses making money off of their product and abusing their game at the cost of the people who play this game legit (my opinion). As far as earning gil to buy the items I want to make myself a priceless Ninja, I'd rather not have to pay an overly-large sum of gil to a bunch pirates who will take the gil I spent so much time and effort on just to sell it for RL money and make a RL profit off of it. I believe this is wrong and needs to be stopped; if not at least addressed by SE.

[Prrsha]

I'm up for some Gil seller MPKing.

[Alya Mizar (Tsybil)]

Buying and selling....

In my early days I would keep my AH slots full by buying retail at the shops and reselling at the AH. Today, in San d'Oria, I can still buy Cesti at the weapon shop, ~ 100 Gil, walk a couple of blocks to the AH, and turn them for 500 - 600.

I was the best dressed RDM with no sub job you ever saw.

There are many games within this game. So few play the economic game.

[maryadavies]

I did the same thing with spell scrolls for the longest time, until the prices on the AH went way down..that doesn't make gil fast enough anymore. Now I make gil from mithakabobs and whatever else I can craft that sells for more than what it takes to make it.

Anyway speaking of gilsellers, some gilsellers on our server got some just desserts so don't tell me GM's don't do nuthin'. And may that guy who made that paticular topic and his friends (I think they started a LS called FarmTHIS to try and stop the gilsellers) stop those filthy rotten gilsellers who camp the Stroper who like to train stuff so you can't target that NM! I understand a group locked Stroper down all weekend to try to thwart the gilsellers...

[Gwynn]

I understand a group locked Stroper down all weekend to try to thwart the gilsellers...

On Bismark i've seen this happen. A Level 75 Paladin singlehandedly shut down the archer's ring trade. He provoked it on a friday night, and sucessfully tanked it for 5 full days. He never went idle. His friends beat up all the trains that gillsellers tried to bring in on him. He had a GM come in (invis) and watch. Nothing he was doing was against S-E policy, and stated as much, in shouts.

It was funny. I went in there to hunt the stroper myself. I sat there and was angry for a while... I didn't know what was happening. When the first jerries came in with a train, like 8 people all un-invisibled and began laying the smack down on the train. It was hilarious.

They asked me what I was doing there, and I said I came for the stroper, but it was too funny watching them defend it from the Jerries. Suddenly I get an invite, So naturally I accept. turns out there was an alliance of people who, just like me, came to out-hunt the jerries but decided to Defend the paladin when told what was going on. There were eight people in the stroper's area itself, and another eight out killing everything they could so there would be nothing to train into the area.

It was truely amazing. Someone had an unopened LS on them and formed the "CounterGS" Linkshell. We gained like 45-50 members over the course of the Paladin's tanking as people cycled in and out.

After so long of a tank, the Pally D/Ced and the people in the alliance pounced on it. Apparently they didn't even get a drop after all that.