anti gil seller petition

[Catsby]

i just may work!

http://www.petitiononline.com/gilsell/petition.html

[Kopopo]

I signed it.

[Eviticus]

I'm number 910.

[Gwynn]

920 here.

and i reported the Jerries.

12 characters all named Jerry with a letter after it.

[spatulaqueen27]

Just signed it... good idea
BTW, Im new
Nakomis lvl18 thf/lvl8 war

[Alya Mizar (Tsybil)]

Hmmmm... 500,000 players, maybe 600,000 now. Oooo... 1,000 signers....

Squenix is realy going to sit up and take notice now.

I wonder how many signers the last 17 petitions got?

[Tivia]

i just may work!

http://www.petitiononline.com/gilsell/petition.html

Noble cause..


*glances at every single mmorpg still running strong*, *takes a quick peek at ebay and other sites*

Unfortunatly..Futile.

[Evehr]

i'm number 1058

[Prrsha]

i just may work!

http://www.petitiononline.com/gilsell/petition.html

Noble cause..


*glances at every single mmorpg still running strong*, *takes a quick peek at ebay and other sites*

Unfortunatly..Futile.

Well the only other option is to vote with your wallet and that is not an option for me. :/

[Delionette]

Well, I signed the petition because I believe even a small effort is an effort, but honestly I think it's futile. I'll tell you why I think that:


Quote from the petition:

"Gilsellers are ruining the game economy by flooding the market with items for outrageous prices and thus selling the money they gain from users to Companies such as IGE - www.ige.com for financial means."

Quote from the petition:

"They dominate monster spawns that drop high priced items making it impossible for normal players to acquire or purchase these items at a reasonable price. They also train monsters on players who attempt to go against them and get monster spawns leading to the death of experienced players and hours of lost time in exp."

Quote from the petition:

"Game Masters the only policing force within the game do nothing to address the problem even when hundreds of calls a day are coming in of players who spend WEEKS to MONTHS in 1 place DAY and NIGHT inhumanely possible to farm the above items."


My theory...

As far as I can tell, all these scenarios lead to one outcome: players must spent more time playing the game to progress (e.g. players must farm longer to make the money to afford the abnoxiously high priced items and must spend more time camping NM in hopes of actually nailing it when it pops.) More time spent playing the game equals more money in the pockets of Square-Enix executives. Thus, said gilfarmers are actually beneficial to said executives and their pocket books, which could explain why GMs aren't doing jack about the problem (because their bosses, the executives, don't want them to.)

This is just my (simple) theory. I'm not saying that this is the way it really is, but I'm willing to bet that I'm not far off. Don't waste your time replying that I'm a dumbass and don't know what I"m talking about. I'm too cynical and stubborn to give a damn or see it any other way without solid proof. If I'm wrong, then fine... I'm wrong. But if I'm wrong, then why haven't Square-Enix and GMs done more to address the problem?


My solution...

If you look at history, you'll see that many revolutions (at least those of a political/socialogical nature, which this is in a round-about sense if you think about it) did not come about by writing polite letters and petitions to the antagonists and those in power asking them to play nice and be fair and please fix the problem. No, many revolutions have come about through warfare and bloodshed. Now, I'm not at all saying that we should try to hunt down these gilfarmers and such in real life and start executing them. That's just silly. But I'm certainly suggesting that some manner of full-scale warfare may need to be carried out against our antagonists (gilfarmer, bots, greedy and uncaring Square-Enix executives and GMs) if it seems that more passive solutions (e.g. petitions) are having no effect.

1. Boycott Final Fantasy Online!! This, I believe, will strike the hardest blow and will strike Square-Enix executives directly and in the most painful spot... their wallets. If a significant number of people stop playing because they believe Square-Enix is doing nothing about the problem, and if Square-Enix starts loosing a significant amount of money because of this, they WILL do something to fix the problem. At least I would hope so. Unfortunately, I also belived that this is the method that least people are willing to use, because most people are probably unwilling to stop playing this game for an extended period even though the (desired) end result is highly favorable to them. People are just too addicted to comfort and convenience and anything that gives them pleasure, know what I mean? Especially Americans (I'm American, so don't start flaming me for that comment).

2. In Game Protests!! Get as many people together as possible in game and perform a protest march through highly populated areas. I'm talking massive numbers here... enough to lag the living hell out of the area where the protest is being held and spamming protest slogans in the process. Cause as much lag as possible to get as much attention as possible. Yeah, yeah.. this will piss a lot of players off, but when they see why it's being done perhaps it will encourage them to take up the fight as well; because the intelligent player will realize that the protests, and the lag caused by the protests, will end when Square-Enix and GMs get off their asses and finally DO SOMETHING about the problem. Use this same method to discourage lazy players from utilizing services like IGE. And yes, there is a possibility of a massive jailing of all protesters, but if you're not willing to take that risk to accomplish your goals then you have no right to complain about the problem in the first place.

3. Fight Fire with Fire!! Sick of gilfarmers training monsters on you and other legitimate players? Sick of them stealing NMs and over-camping? Fight fire with fire!! Get a sh*t load of people together (just as if you were forming a protest march) and mess with the gilfarmers back. Train hordes and hordes of mobs on them. Steal the NMs that they are camping. Just make their job as miserable and hard to carry out as possible. Make their efforts futile, just like they are doing to us. Make them see that their current career as a gilfarmer is no longer worth the time and effort. Force them to give up out of frustration.

These are just some basic ideas. They are untested so who knows how well they will actually work when implemented. It would be nice if a simple petition turns out to be the cure to this problem, but I am highly skeptical.

Just my opinion... take it with a grain of salt, as the saying goes.

~D~

P.S. This post wast proofread hastely. Please excuse any spelling and grammar errors.

P.S. Bah... edited to fix some errors anyway. :p

[Eviticus]

I was once in a party that had just kicked a Thf cause he sucked at his job. His retaliation was to get his AF clad Drk and he started training gobs on us. One person in our party called a GM over it, that guy -never- bothered us again.

Training monsters would probably be a -bad- idea. Otherwise, you could just use Bst's as assassin's...

*Charms big nasty aggro creature, places it near the gilfarmer, uses 'Leave' on the monster and runs like hell*

But I like your method of thinking, we need to be proactive against them...

[Prrsha]

As far as I can tell, all these scenarios lead to one outcome: players must spent more time playing the game to progress (e.g. players must farm longer to make the money to afford the abnoxiously high priced items and must spend more time camping NM in hopes of actually nailing it when it pops.) More time spent playing the game equals more money in the pockets of Square-Enix executives. Thus, said gilfarmers are actually beneficial to said executives and their pocket books, which could explain why GMs aren't doing jack about the problem (because their bosses, the executives, don't want them to.)

Acutally I've seen this in most MMORPGs and people don't tend to spend more time trying to get items, they just end of quitting. That in the end leads to less cash for square. It also can become the downfall of a game too once the rep gets out that the game is full of gil sellers.

In any MMORPG you have to retain your playerbase if you lose them faster then you gain them. As I see it right now, FFXI is losing more players then it is gaining.

[Kopopo]

Damn straight, Delionette! I love the protest and pissing off of gil sellers part. Let's do it! I don't care if I go to jail, I say let them toss me in there. I'll find ways to antagonize them even there.

[Alya Mizar (Tsybil)]

There is another side to the high prices. The guy who can say, "What? The price is up another 20K Gil? well that's only X dollars." And with 2 million reportedly down to $150, that is $1.50.

As the price of gill drops, the price of items will rise.

Someone has a thread on GameFAQs with his new way to make gil. He watches IGE and when they lower prices, he puts his Gil instantly into big ticket items, waits some time, resells. (See sometimes GameFAQs is more than just flaming and trolling.)

Things they don't camp are up also. Gilfarmers do not camp the Goblin Greul, yet the Price of the Vallor Earring is up over 80% from when I killed him and got mine.

If the Gilfarmers PK, they can be jailed. They cannot be jailed for tag team 24/7 camping.

[Ambrey]

I signed the petition, looking forward to seeing Sqenix's response, good or bad. We haven't had too much of a problem with gilsellers on Remora... yet. However as soon as I start to take more notice of gilsellers on the server, dont think for a second (and this is directed at any gilsellers that may be reading this) that if Squenix doesn't take action I will go out of my way to stop playing the game for enjoyment and just make it a personal goal to recruit gilseller assassins and make it my personal goal to make the gilseller's lives on Remora a living hell. So if any of you reading this are gilsellers, you have a couple options, cease and decease ur actions and pursue another game to sell gil or acutally play the game or get off Remora server and go someplace else cuz on Remora, we wont tolerate it.

[Prrsha]

Sadly the only real way to deal with gil sellers (without hurting the game in general) is with self policing. Unfortunately 95% of the game community has to be behind you and actively protest the gil sellers through ingame actions for it to work.

[Ambrey]

If what you say is true, the I would have to say arent we wasting our time? Id hate to see Squenix not even attempt to help out the gaming community cause I am sure if it comes down to it, then there is gonna be quite a few roaming LS's comprised completely of just players out to get gilsellers killed. Gilsellers are not the only ones out there that can train mobs and kill off actual players in the game, there is always a way to deal with an opponent in these types of games.....

[Tivia]

I mentioned this in another thread along these lines.

You are most correct when you think this is a waste of time, because it does not target the true source of the problem.

the true problem is not the gil sellers, its not the companies that set the auctions. Its the players that Buy it, Simple economics " You cant sell something if there is no demand, And if there is a demand there will always be a supply." Put simply As long as there is someone willing to buy, there will always be someone willing to sell. I think the most disturbing thing I have seen and the number one reason why I do not support any petitions against sellers, is I have watched people rant and rave about gill sellers hoarding spawns, and complained about the fact that they sell gil, then turn right around and purchase it online citing how cheap it is, and how much easier it is then trying to earn it. The term Hypocrite utterly fails to begin to describe.

I have watched this scenario play out in more games then i care to count at this point; Ultima Online, DAOC, AC, EQ, FFXI, LineageII, EQ2...Its the same story..a small group of players always starting online petitions, threatening the company that players are going to start leaving etc ( and a few do, I emphasise Few ) however the majority are too addicted to the game to give up their virtual persona's and thus the petition goes down as just another sad attempt at bucking a system that is far too estabilished to be removed easily.

It was mentioned earlier about it prolonging players play time due to spending more time trying to aquire the money, this is also very true..in the end it comes down to money..If companies like SE, VI, and others tried to ban all the gil sellers/buyers they would easily lose 50%+ of their player base...This is a Far more serious blow then a few hundred threatening to quit on a petition, where a handful might actually follow through with it, half of which will return in a few months when their delusions of something better being out there are shattered.

[Sivara]

which could explain why GMs aren't doing jack about the problem (because their bosses, the executives, don't want them to.)

This isn't really true for a couple of reasons. One was brought up by Prrsha (expensive items and ruined economies lead to players quitting). The other is that SE has (supposedly) been trying to fight IGE. However, there are many legal complications due to IGE being overseas and the arrangements taking place outside of the game. I did hear that SE is currently involved in a lawsuit against gil selling companies (perhaps they made it through the legal problems?). I don't know how true that is but it is a nice thought.

MMO legal issues are very new (just look at Marvel's lawsuit against City of Heroes). I hope SE successfully sues gil sellers for essentially "taking" their "property" (gil) and selling it for a profit.

Personally, I'm boycotting items camped by gil sellers.

[Mystiana]

Code: Select all

dragon@calico (514)~> whois ige.com
[...]
Registrant:
Internet Gaming Entertainment Ltd. (IGE-DOM)
   C&C 5/F, Yeung Yiu Chung 8,
   Ind Bldg 20, Wang Hoi Road
   Kowloon Bay, Kowloon
   HK

Hong Kong, ie, China. Last time my family had to deal with Chinese police, they had to be bribed to even write down the report. Yeah... good luck catching IGE in anything. :/ There's a reason why Taiwan and Hong Kong are considered major piracy centers.

The problem isn't that the items the gil-sellers farm becomes even more expensive... the problem is the overall inflation these types of players create. Add that to the lack of a solid item sinkhole, and the economy is doomed. The gil-sellers just speed up the process.

[Ambrey]

So what everyone is saying on here is there is no way of stopping the gil sellers? This petition is a waist of time? Squenix, GM's, players wont do anything about it? Correct me if I am wrong but is this what it boils down to? If I am wrong, correct me and tell us what we need to do then to take action against these gilsellers. I am all ears for a solution and await anyones response....

[Dukuji]

Couldn't SE just send moles (normal looking characters that are SE employees) out to buy gil (200k is going for $16.67* right now) then when the gil is sent they just look up the name and from that they could track down the handle, the account, and the payment information. From there they have documented evidence against the account and can act according to their User Agreement**. It says "Any activities consisting of selling, purchasing or exchanging “gil” or any other currency that may be used in the Game," is cause for, "immediate termination of your PlayOnline account."

Wouldn’t this cause a scare in the gil sellers' world? Sure they could always buy more accounts but that is additional work and cost to the gil sellers.

I don’t want to go into too many facets of this idea right now for I am currently writing an essay on this topic and will post it on this site as soon as it is done.


*http://www.mysupersales.com/MG/search.a ... Field.y=20

**https://secure.playonline.com/supportus ... 1user.html

[Mystiana]

So what everyone is saying on here is there is no way of stopping the gil sellers? This petition is a waist of time? Squenix, GM's, players wont do anything about it? Correct me if I am wrong but is this what it boils down to? If I am wrong, correct me and tell us what we need to do then to take action against these gilsellers. I am all ears for a solution and await anyones response....

Hmmm....

Honestly, I don't think Square really gives a damn. The RMT's became a problem with the addition of North American players. Square's already made more money then they dreamed possible on this project, and frankly, have given the impression (to me anyway) that they don't really care anymore. They make patches when the Japanese complain, but to this day, no North American petition has ever done anything to change Square's plans.

Ever.

This is reality, folks. We don't matter. North America has always been second-class to Square, and they've yet to change this view... :/

[Kopopo]

We need bombs then.

[Sivara]

They make patches when the Japanese complain, but to this day, no North American petition has ever done anything to change Square's plans.

Ever.

This is reality, folks. We don't matter. North America has always been second-class to Square, and they've yet to change this view... :/

Maybe we are second-class. But...

1. The Japanese are just as pissed off about gil sellers. It's their game too.

2. Those lv 20 avatar battles...weren't those requested by a North American petition?

[Prrsha]

I mentioned this in another thread along these lines.

You are most correct when you think this is a waste of time, because it does not target the true source of the problem.

the true problem is not the gil sellers, its not the companies that set the auctions. Its the players that Buy it, Simple economics " You cant sell something if there is no demand, And if there is a demand there will always be a supply." Put simply As long as there is someone willing to buy, there will always be someone willing to sell. I think the most disturbing thing I have seen and the number one reason why I do not support any petitions against sellers, is I have watched people rant and rave about gill sellers hoarding spawns, and complained about the fact that they sell gil, then turn right around and purchase it online citing how cheap it is, and how much easier it is then trying to earn it. The term Hypocrite utterly fails to begin to describe.

I have watched this scenario play out in more games then i care to count at this point; Ultima Online, DAOC, AC, EQ, FFXI, LineageII, EQ2...Its the same story..a small group of players always starting online petitions, threatening the company that players are going to start leaving etc ( and a few do, I emphasise Few ) however the majority are too addicted to the game to give up their virtual persona's and thus the petition goes down as just another sad attempt at bucking a system that is far too estabilished to be removed easily.

It was mentioned earlier about it prolonging players play time due to spending more time trying to aquire the money, this is also very true..in the end it comes down to money..If companies like SE, VI, and others tried to ban all the gil sellers/buyers they would easily lose 50%+ of their player base...This is a Far more serious blow then a few hundred threatening to quit on a petition, where a handful might actually follow through with it, half of which will return in a few months when their delusions of something better being out there are shattered.

There is no way to stop or find the gil buyers for that matter so that is a waste of time. There will always be hackers/cheaters that want to get ahead in a game by whatever means possible.

You can however attack the visible people in this, aka the gilsellers. You need to have the community behind you like I said and a large amount of people actively hunting them 24/7. Eventually they will waste too much time attempting to gain gil through NM camping means that they will switch their tactics to fishing/mining/teleports etc (which is a good thing).

[mozyr]

I signed it, but isn't it a little ironic that they have a banner at the top of the page linking to the IGE website where you can buy gil? Unless they're just trying to prove that the place exists. I just find it kind of strange.

-- Sarah, signature 1401.

[mozyr]

Prrsha: There is no way to stop or find the gil buyers for that matter so that is a waste of time. There will always be hackers/cheaters that want to get ahead in a game by whatever means possible.

Actually, I was under the impression that people had to pay for this stuff by credit card, which can be traced because it leaves a paper trail. You can also trace money orders (I used to work for a bank -- I know this. It's tedious, but it can be done. I've done it before)

Also, I believe that Play Online/Square Enix with as highly advanced as both companies in the game circuit, I would like to think that if they're able to archive thousands of chat logs, that they'd be able to pinpoint where you are and what you're doing. A friend of mine was tracked down by GMs while she was fishing, and was given a GM call that told her to "respond immediately" or that her character would be deleted. It was assumed that she was botting since she hadn't moved for a few hours (she wasn't). If GMs have the ability to know where your character is, I would assume that they would also have access to your character's "financial records" for lack of a better term.

There has to be some way or another to be able to track what money gets sent where.

A few of my friends on the Siren server have had their characters deleted because they bought gil online. Yes, it took a few months for them to be tracked down, but they were, and they inevitably wound up paying the price. It is possible. I've known people it's happened to, so I can't believe otherwise.

-- Sarah

[Prrsha]

Prrsha: There is no way to stop or find the gil buyers for that matter so that is a waste of time. There will always be hackers/cheaters that want to get ahead in a game by whatever means possible.

Actually, I was under the impression that people had to pay for this stuff by credit card, which can be traced because it leaves a paper trail. You can also trace money orders (I used to work for a bank -- I know this. It's tedious, but it can be done. I've done it before)

Also, I believe that Play Online/Square Enix with as highly advanced as both companies in the game circuit, I would like to think that if they're able to archive thousands of chat logs, that they'd be able to pinpoint where you are and what you're doing. A friend of mine was tracked down by GMs while she was fishing, and was given a GM call that told her to "respond immediately" or that her character would be deleted. It was assumed that she was botting since she hadn't moved for a few hours (she wasn't). If GMs have the ability to know where your character is, I would assume that they would also have access to your character's "financial records" for lack of a better term.

There has to be some way or another to be able to track what money gets sent where.

A few of my friends on the Siren server have had their characters deleted because they bought gil online. Yes, it took a few months for them to be tracked down, but they were, and they inevitably wound up paying the price. It is possible. I've known people it's happened to, so I can't believe otherwise.

-- Sarah

How could they tell that the gil was from a legit source or a gil seller or not? Gil is not earmarked is the game.

As for financial records, square will have a very hard time getting IGE to turn over their records. The company crosses international lines and China's record on prosecuting data crime is shady at best.

[mozyr]

How could they tell that the gil was from a legit source or a gil seller or not? Gil is not earmarked is the game.

Well, I figure that if SE (hypothetically) subpoenas a site like IGE for their records (let's not forget the fact that SE isn't a US company, it's a Japanese company -- I'm sure they could probably go after IGE if they wanted to) -- if they're able to match up credit card numbers for someone's POL account to that same person buying gil from an online site, then it's pretty obvious where that person is getting their gil from.

As for financial records, square will have a very hard time getting IGE to turn over their records. The company crosses international lines and China's record on prosecuting data crime is shady at best.

I'll have to ask my cousin to give me more information on this since this is the branch of law that she's been studying for the past ten years. She has a lot more knowledge about international copyright laws, etc. than I do.

-- Sarah