Defining our economic problems.

Post by **Alya Mizar (Tsybil)** » Fri Dec 30, 2005 7:53 pm

The problem has three components. They all are RMTs.

1, The Gil farmers. While often the employs of Chinese sweatshops seen camping in the Sanctuary 24/8, fishing rustys permanently in the mines, or endlessly fishing for Angel Skins, some are not. High level crafters, both Japanese and NA have been said to be able to pick up $600 - $1K US / month selling excess Gil to IGE.

2, The Gil sellers. Companies like IGE and others who advertise on many sites we all frequent.

3, Irresponsible Gil buyers. The ones, who having Gil they did not work for, cheerfully jack up prices to astronomical levels.

What can you do about it? Simply do not buy at those prices. Perhaps drop the dime on the Gil farmers.

What can Squenix do about it? LOTS. Everything that happens in the game is visible to Squenix, and does not evaporate fast. They can easily see the Gil seller's agents, those who get regular transfers of large amounts Gil into and out of their accounts, but never level or craft.

What does Squenix do about it? Only ban those who go in for MPKing, and only the worst of those.

What can you do about that? That is THE question really. Call Squenix and threaten to leave? Call Squenix and demand action?

If we can identify the Gil Seller's agents and get them banned... well, that gets rid of a WHOLE lot of excess Gil doesn't it?

And getting rid of excess Gil is what so many threads are about.

Post by **JediKitsune** » Fri Dec 30, 2005 9:05 pm

The problem has been stated already though: SE probably won't ban them because:

1. Legal loopholes gilsellers use (I.E. You're not paying for the gil, you're paying for the 'time earned to make the gil'). Also, Chinese law is different from Japanese law, making things even more complicated to the point where SE would much rather not try.

2. Gilsellers are paying the monthly fee just like the rest of us.

I think it's also been proven that a large amount of the reason that our economy is this way is due to the fact that stupid people have too much gil on their hands.

Kintrra · Post by **Kintrra** » Fri Dec 30, 2005 11:05 pm

The hell with chinese law, it states in the ToS that gilbuying/selling is against the rules. They signed the ToS when they activated those accounts same as anyone else did. That's that. So legal loopholes be damned. Ban the stupid *censored* and be done with it. ><

Post by **JediKitsune** » Fri Dec 30, 2005 11:21 pm

Kintrra wrote:The hell with chinese law, it states in the ToS that gilbuying/selling is against the rules. They signed the ToS when they activated those accounts same as anyone else did. That's that. So legal loopholes be damned. Ban the stupid *censored* and be done with it. ><

I don't like the way the laws work anymore than you do, but I know that regardless of how rediculous they are, SE has to comply unless they want to get into some serious sh*t with the government.

They can't ban gilsellers either. Ask a GM about that, they'll tell you it's not possible because they need to be able to prove without a shadow of a doubt that the player is a gilseller. Basically, they'd have to see or hear them openly exclaim that they sell gil. Even then, I'm sure the player can deny it and possibly get away with only a brief suspension.

Post by **Shirai** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 12:53 am

I see quite a misunderstanding here.

Yes I agree that it may be the gilbuyers jacking up the prices of certain items.
But there's also a bunch of "Legit" Players that are jacking up prices for their own profit.
So imo the whole community is responsible for these rediculus price raises.

Checking the gear I bought a few months ago now shocked me.
Prices of simple Blessed gear have doubled or even tripled.
My summoner gear Trippled and is heading towards 4x it's price I paid for it 3 weeks ago.

As for gilsellers/botters/3rd party app users etc.
Yes SE can do something about them, but unless continually caught on these events they can only work according to their own rules meaning a suspension of 3/5 days.
If someone is caught and suspended, the group just uses the program on another character and keep a low profile on the one caught and suspended.
The best thing you can do is when you camp an NM and you suspect a gilseller Camping/Botting it is call a GM and let him/her monitor the situation.
GMs tend to take these calls very seriously and can often see if people are using 3rd party aps/Packetsniffers/lag programs.
One tool Gilsellers tend to use these days is a program that gives a lagspike to an area just before an NM pops.
Explaining why some NMs are popping Purple (Claimed) on other's displays.
Although the "user" in question will just be suspended he/she will have to keep a low profile, and when done frequently enough you might be able to disable a large part of a gilseller/botter group.

Prrsha · Post by **Prrsha** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 1:14 am

Kintrra wrote:The hell with chinese law, it states in the ToS that gilbuying/selling is against the rules. They signed the ToS when they activated those accounts same as anyone else did. That's that. So legal loopholes be damned. Ban the stupid *censored* and be done with it. ><

It's not so much a problem with the law as it is with logistics. SE's can't ban a player on hersay. They have to indeed prove that the said person is a gilseller. Can you imagine the outcry if an innocent player was banned? He would run to every community site on the internet and scream foul. It wouldn't look good for SE that's for sure.

So... when they ban a person, they need to be VERY sure that person is a gil seller. That takes... time and lots of manpower. As with any MMORPG, the staff numbers are lacking to serve the customer base. Hiring more staff greatly cuts into their profit so it is a balancing act of sorts.

Post by **Sugami** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 1:33 am

Legit players are whacking up the prices 'cause dumbass gilbuyers are willing to pay for it.

Legally it's all above board. Selling gil is the same as selling excess stickers or trading cards or whatever in that respect.

The game belongs to SE, I'm sure there's something in their disclaimer contract or whatever that states they can suspend or ban any account for no reason, the same way a shop or pub/bar can bar someone if they pleased.
Just as long as they're getting money I don't think they really care

Post by **JediKitsune** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 1:46 am

They MIGHT at some point ban the gilsellers, but they'll never do much regarding dealing with inflation. SE has a pretty strict policy on not interfering with the player-run economy save the various AH taxes and gilsinks.

Losfuin · Post by **Losfuin** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 2:56 am

BEST. ALLA THREAD. EVER

MP Phoenix kitties will know what I'm talking about. Hahagirl and Littlecatter.

It seems inflation is hitting high-end gear the worst, which is probably why it doesn't bother me too much. As Keavy has said in another thread, if I farm for the same amount of time as before, I bring in much more gil, because of inflation. Taking it one step further, I can invest that gil in crafting, buying ore from NPCs are a relatively fixed price (or skins, or thread, etc.), turning it into ingots, and then re-selling it at a price higher than it was before. Am I the kind to push up item prices when selling? No. But, people still buy my e.g mythril ingots - priced just a few K above what I synthed them for - for the going rate. I'm living like a mithra queen because of this inflation.

All that said, power-crafters are my least favourite people in the game. You go destroying a market, and I will want to hunt you down like the dog you are. And people with excess gil tend to power-craft, both gil-buyers and high-lvl people wanting to do something other than hit things. I'm proud to be probably the only person whoregularly camps the Goldsmithing guild shop who is not in end-game gear, or a naked mule.

3am. Tired.

Post by **Alya Mizar (Tsybil)** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 6:01 am

Prrsha wrote:It's not so much a problem with the law as it is with logistics. SE's can't ban a player on hersay. They have to indeed prove that the said person is a gilseller. Can you imagine the outcry if an innocent player was banned? He would run to every community site on the internet and scream foul. It wouldn't look good for SE that's for sure.

So... when they ban a person, they need to be VERY sure that person is a gil seller. That takes... time and lots of manpower. As with any MMORPG, the staff numbers are lacking to serve the customer base. Hiring more staff greatly cuts into their profit so it is a balancing act of sorts.

Check this thread. They DO suspend people on hersay:

http://www.lisaarndt.com/phpBB2/viewtop ... 4516#44516

A second mistaken suspension is on page 5.

Post by **JediKitsune** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 8:02 am

Huh... It does sound like the person wasn't totally cooperating with the GM... I mean, they SHOULD have noticed the tell if they were at the computer/PS2 at the time.

People who say they were 'wrongfully suspended' sometimes have a tendency to change stuff around a bit to gain sympathy. I'm not saying this person is a liar for sure, but it's possible.

Prrsha · Post by **Prrsha** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 9:52 am

Tsybil wrote:
Prrsha wrote:It's not so much a problem with the law as it is with logistics. SE's can't ban a player on hersay. They have to indeed prove that the said person is a gilseller. Can you imagine the outcry if an innocent player was banned? He would run to every community site on the internet and scream foul. It wouldn't look good for SE that's for sure.

So... when they ban a person, they need to be VERY sure that person is a gil seller. That takes... time and lots of manpower. As with any MMORPG, the staff numbers are lacking to serve the customer base. Hiring more staff greatly cuts into their profit so it is a balancing act of sorts.
Check this thread. They DO suspend people on hersay:

http://www.lisaarndt.com/phpBB2/viewtop ... 4516#44516

A second mistaken suspension is on page 5.

No hersay there. The person didn't respond to a tell from a GM. That's grounds to suspend their account based on the absentee game play clause. If you are fishing (or doing anything else in game) and don't respond to a GM, they have grounds to temp ban you.

In this case, a person was fishing and didn't reply to the GM. Because the person was acting in game (fishing) and didn't reply means he fell under the absentee gamepay clause. Looks like the GM was doing what he was susposed to do... banning a person for violating the ToS.

If I was a GM (and had no other tools at my disposal to determine if a person was a bot) I would do the same.

Losfuin · Post by **Losfuin** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 12:55 pm

I remember that thread. Ask yourself this: would the subsequent posters be nearly so sympathetic if a new forum meber had said *exactly* the same things? Hell no. Just because the person is known, it doesn't change anything. I utterly agree with the GM's action here; if the person in question had previously missed /tells from friends, then they should have worked out that they need to pay more attention to the game-screen, so that they could avoid exactly what happened. And I daresay some GMs would temp-ban just for her attitude when she got to talk with one.

Post by **Fiye** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 1:07 pm

Just think of Gil as butter for a moment. You farm butter from cows and various other stuff and form it into butter. Well, soon you package that butter and sell it to people who decide to eat it. When they eat it, their body is reusing the butter and becomes fattened by it. The more butter, the fatter they become.

Although, once they hit a certain point, it pops.

I wonder when FFXI Devs will come up with a solution to this. Probabily never.

Kintrra · Post by **Kintrra** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 1:25 pm

They can't ban the Gilsellers, eh? Meh, whether they can do that or not, they /can/ shut down the site. Legality is one thing, a site that is open argument with the very ToS of the game is another story. And logic denotes that if you do nothing worth being accused of, then you'll never be accused, ne? Human players are just that, human. They have the same delays, lags, and responses as the rest of us. a gilselling botter is going to do nothing if you claim, claim ahead of spawn 3/4 of the time anyway, or try to MPK you. (granted, some 'normal' players will attempt the MPK, but usually not /quite/ as vehemently, or at least they'd include some sh*t-talking). I mean, come on, for crud's sake. If us players can find gilsellers (Alexander kitties ALL know who Tomgood is) then I should sure as hell hope the GMs can figure it out.

Losfuin · Post by **Losfuin** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 2:44 pm

Kintrra wrote:. And logic denotes that if you do nothing worth being accused of, then you'll never be accused, ne?

Then logic is wrong. People aren't logical anyway, including GMs. Consider: by the above argument, then we'd have no need for courts and juries, because the police would never arrest someone who was innocent.

Post by **Sugami** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 4:51 pm

I don't think you can compare the two. People get wrongfully arrested if they're in the wrong place at the wrong time, or if they're acting suspiciuosly in the first place or even if they've been framed but guess that comes into the first category I mentioned.

Complaining about this won't make it go away, just have to face it that gilselling is here to stay and we can't do anything about it

I estimate FFXI will be completely populated by gilbuyers and gilsellers in a year or less

Losfuin · Post by **Losfuin** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 5:01 pm

Sugami wrote:I don't think you can compare the two. People get wrongfully arrested if they're in the wrong place at the wrong time, or if they're acting suspiciuosly in the first place or even if they've been framed but guess that comes into the first category I mentioned.

People who have recently aquired rare, purchasable gear - such as a Vermy or SH+1 - have been getting people accusing them of buying gil. A few days ago, several LS members suspected another of being a gil-seller because of his NM camping habits. Bots can be made which campp guilds; I presently have a mule sat in San d'Oria for the purpose of camping the leathercraft guild, and will often be found camping the Goldsmithing guild. People fish for long amounts of time in the same place without using bots. The thread Tsybil linked to shows how non-botters have had bans for supposedly botting. People can be called up on MPK charges when it was a total acident - less so now, but it could happen.

A comparison can most certainly be made.

Post by **Alya Mizar (Tsybil)** » Sun Jan 01, 2006 1:37 am

Sugami wrote:I don't think you can compare the two. People get wrongfully arrested if they're in the wrong place at the wrong time, or if they're acting suspiciuosly in the first place or even if they've been framed but guess that comes into the first category I mentioned.

IRL, sometimes people get arrested just because some cop doesn't like them. People have more than just occasionaly been framed and convicted by the cops, the prosocuting attorney, or other parts of the all too aptly named Criminal Justice System. People who have been placed by witnesses as a long way from the scene of a crime all to regularly are convicted of that crime.

/ponders on how to frame Gil sellers

Kintrra wrote:They can't ban the Gilsellers, eh? Meh, whether they can do that or not, they /can/ shut down the site. Legality is one thing, a site that is open argument with the very ToS of the game is another story.

But that is EXACTLY what they cannot do.
1, The site is Home Paged in another country.
2, The ToSA is not a law, it is a contract.

I do wonder if Google advertising can be sued for carrying and placing adds that encorage Squeenix coustomers to break a legaly binding contract.

Post by **Sugami** » Sun Jan 01, 2006 2:18 pm

Eh this all seems rather fruitless to me. If you're gonna compare the court system to FFXI then the GMs are the police, jury and judge and they never do sh*t so no there isn't a similarity there

Can only close down a website if it breaks the law or is a misrepresentation of the truth, basically saying slanderous stuff, which you can get sued over. Like Tsybil said the ToS is not law, just a contract.

Naru Fugihara · Post by **Naru Fugihara** » Sun Jan 01, 2006 3:30 pm

Sugami wrote:Eh this all seems rather fruitless to me. If you're gonna compare the court system to FFXI then the GMs are the police, jury and judge and they never do sh*t so no there isn't a similarity there

Can only close down a website if it breaks the law or is a misrepresentation of the truth, basically saying slanderous stuff, which you can get sued over. Like Tsybil said the ToS is not law, just a contract.

yea and the only way those websites selling gil could be shut down due to violation of the ToS then the people running the sites would have to be playing the game.

Other than that if they don't play then they never agreed to the ToS and therfor not liable if they're site is in violation of the ToS.

Technicalities rule except in this situation, now they just suck

.

Post by **Sugami** » Sun Jan 01, 2006 8:19 pm

Naru Fugihara wrote: yea and the only way those websites selling gil could be shut down due to violation of the ToS then the people running the sites would have to be playing the game.

No that's still not breaking the law just breaching contract...

Kintrra · Post by **Kintrra** » Sun Jan 01, 2006 10:45 pm

That's the way I'm looking at it. The owners aren't breaking the ToS (which is a contract) but every transaction they make/cause IS breaking the ToS (which is a contract) and last time I checked, you sign a contract, you're bound to it. <.<;

Post by **Sugami** » Mon Jan 02, 2006 2:39 pm

Yeah... breach of contract means they can terminate your contract and that's it. I think, still can't get sued or whatever

Post by **Alya Mizar (Tsybil)** » Mon Jan 02, 2006 5:23 pm

Sugami wrote:Yeah... breach of contract means they can terminate your contract and that's it. I think, still can't get sued or whatever

You CAN get sued for breaking a contract. Even an implied contract.

You can also get sued to live up the terms of a contract. Even an implied contract. That one is called a specific performance lawsuit.

Want to start a class action suit against Squeenix?

By outlawing certain things / practices in the ToSA, they implied that the game would be free of those things and practices. It isn't.

BTW, while you can ALWAYS sue, you can't always win.

Post by **Sugami** » Mon Jan 02, 2006 6:25 pm

Right so SE could sue IGE for breach of contract if they could identify the players who are doing so, all comes down to small potatoes to them and not really worth their time and effort.

angelstar107 · Post by **angelstar107** » Tue Jan 03, 2006 6:16 am

I just submitted my idea to deal with all the issues that servers face, all in 1 shot.

What is my idea? I'll get to that. Let's focus on what it does.

1. The value of gil has become null. My method reinstates the value of gil to it's full and true value.
2. All the AH Monoplies, done away.
3. No more F-ed up economy.
4. Real Money Trade destroyed

And YES my method can do all that, but we gotta keep sending it in. So what is it? It's a super simple method: Capping the AH.

By capping every item on the AH to a set value (Varies for different items), you eliminate price jacking. Items with a higher demand has a higher cap. Items that are more common and in less demand have lower caps. This keeps cheap stuff cheap and expensive stuff fairly priced. No more 12M for a Scorpion Harness or 31M for a full set of Barone.

Before you all get on my case and say it'll never work, just think about it. Those of you who agree with this idea, submit it to the GMs. I just did, and if we can get them to see that a lot of people agree, they might just do it. Right now, it's about the only thing that can save FFXI from the gilsellers.

If you wish to support this idea, I have already created a generic message for your use (Just copy, paste, and submit).

I am very concerned with the economical situations that plague all the servers as a result of Real Money Trade. Not only has Real Money Trade destroyed the economic structure of every server except for the testing servers, but it has also been the cause of many players quitting FFXI.

Some friends and I were chatting about how we could possibly fix all the economical problems on the server, not including Real Money Trade at the time. The answer that we concluded is that in order to restore the economic stability of all servers, you have to start at the primary source of the problem: The Auction House.

Players have been raising the prices on necessary items, such as food, weapons, and armor, to unfair levels that most honest players cannot reach in a fair amount of time. Further, Real Money Trade has devalued the Gil used to make these purchases, which raises the prices even higher.

We have concluded that the best way to eliminate these two major issues is that the Auction House has price caps on all items, based off the demand for that item. Special Items, such as the Scorpion Harness, would have higher caps within reasonable limits, due to the difficulty related with the collection of items necessary for its creation. However, when the price of such an item jumps to twelve or thirteen million, you have to stop and wonder what is a fair price for a luxury.

I am not the only player who believes this to be the only remaining way to restore the economies of all the servers, and as such, I have asked them to also submit this same message to you, in hopes that you will consider this as an option to not only save the economy, but the life of Final Fantasy XI as well.

Post by **JediKitsune** » Tue Jan 03, 2006 7:15 am

Setting an AH cap would eliminate the value of gil as well as the value of items used to buy that gil. The amount of gil would continue to increase, but the price of a Scorpion Harness doesn't, thus more people would be able to get one and it would lose any worth it may have had as a rare item.

The Auction House would become mostly useless as well as its purpose would be defeated. People would start bazaaring all of their expensive items.

Pyrexia · Post by **Pyrexia** » Tue Jan 03, 2006 8:06 am

Give NPC merchants more valuable goods. NPCs could be a huge gilsink.

Imagine if you will an NPC that will sell you a scorp harness for say... 6m. The NPC would have a limited inventory of SHs and they would be the same exact thing as a SH, none of this rare/ex stuff I have seen people propose on other sites. This could be done with a variety of high end items. It would keep prices decent on the AH, and take gil out of the economy.

Post by **JediKitsune** » Tue Jan 03, 2006 8:47 am

Pyrexia wrote:Give NPC merchants more valuable goods. NPCs could be a huge gilsink.

Imagine if you will an NPC that will sell you a scorp harness for say... 6m. The NPC would have a limited inventory of SHs and they would be the same exact thing as a SH, none of this rare/ex stuff I have seen people propose on other sites. This could be done with a variety of high end items. It would keep prices decent on the AH, and take gil out of the economy.

... but in the case of something like a Scorpion Harness that's crafted, it would ruin those who craft it.

I can imagine people buying NPC out and selling them at higher prices in either bazaar or AH depending on location. It's exactly like what a lot of guild campers do.

MithraPride

Defining our economic problems.

Defining our economic problems.

A suggested solution