... well there goes vandiel

[Nivez]

Open Question) How do you plan to deal with players who use packet sniffing?
(Sage Sundi)
If a player is using some type of packet sniffing tool they're still required to be present at the location to be able to do that like any other player, so at the moment we have no plans on pursuing to nullify this behaviour.

Discuss

btw, link to the quote is here.
http://na.square-enix.com/events/ffxi/t ... index.html

[Tivia]

Anyone can do packet sniffing, furthermore it is undetectable if done correctly. SE is smart in not wasting resources in persuing this.

Secondly If someone hopes to gain an advantage by packet sniffing they are honestly wasting their time. the process of decrypting the packet, to accomplish anything is far harder then simply reading the memory address's. Reading memory is a far more productive use of time then packet reading and nets the same results. There is no information in the packet that is not going to be found in the memory address.

Also it is far easier to write to memory then to attempt to mimic packet encyrption.

[Prrsha]

Anyone can do packet sniffing, furthermore it is undetectable if done correctly. SE is smart in not wasting resources in persuing this.

Secondly If someone hopes to gain an advantage by packet sniffing they are honestly wasting their time. the process of decrypting the packet, to accomplish anything is far harder then simply reading the memory address's. Reading memory is a far more productive use of time then packet reading and nets the same results. There is no information in the packet that is not going to be found in the memory address.

Also it is far easier to write to memory then to attempt to mimic packet encyrption.

Yup. Agreed.

[JediKitsune]

Just curious, but how are so many people able to claim NMs and such so fast that they pretty much spawn claimed? I know some people have fast fingers, but I'm talking the inhumanly fast sort that always outclaim you.

[Nobodyreal]

Just curious, but how are so many people able to claim NMs and such so fast that they pretty much spawn claimed? I know some people have fast fingers, but I'm talking the inhumanly fast sort that always outclaim you.

One trick that's not quite so common anymore (doesn't work since they enlarged the NM spawn zones) is to set up a macro for "/target <npc>" (pretty much F8) and then '/ja "Provoke" <t>' And then get a 3rd party program to spam the keystroke for that macro 20-30 times per second. I heard someone explain this and mention where to download such a program while trying to get a coffer key for my RSE in Ordelle's cave. The guy was claiming literally everything in this room and bragging about how he did it.

[Tivia]

Just curious, but how are so many people able to claim NMs and such so fast that they pretty much spawn claimed? I know some people have fast fingers, but I'm talking the inhumanly fast sort that always outclaim you.

Simple principle.

your system ram is the first place everything goes. Just because it is there, does not mean the npc has been sent to your video card and drawn on your screen yet.

So if someone is running a bot that is searching for the npc spawn in their system memory, They are going to see it long before they actually See it on display, so they are provoking it Before it appears on their screen.

[Alya Mizar (Tsybil)]

your system ram is the first place everything goes. Just because it is there, does not mean the npc has been sent to your video card and drawn on your screen yet.

I have been saying for a long time, that the way to spot NMs fast, is to get a HOT video card and turn the settings down till your eyes bleed.

Latency and distance are small potatoes compared to the time it takes your video card to draw things on your screen.

[Baketsu]

On Kujatat i haven't seem much NM camping, but then again I can't remember the last time I went looking to beat on a NM.

[Tivia]

your system ram is the first place everything goes. Just because it is there, does not mean the npc has been sent to your video card and drawn on your screen yet.

I have been saying for a long time, that the way to spot NMs fast, is to get a HOT video card and turn the settings down till your eyes bleed.

Latency and distance are small potatoes compared to the time it takes your video card to draw things on your screen.

Still going to be able to react to data in your ram faster then a video card no matter what. While its a good idea under normal circumstances, in practice it does not help much. Mostly due to how things draw in ffxi, the interesting little fade effect. However working on ram, the instant that ID appears in the memory, the target is provoked. No video card setting can keep up with that. I have of course seen it work, if the user tweaks the settings properly, its quite easy to be provoking targets and have full claim before ever seeing it appear on your screen.

[Baketsu]

^ Maybe square should make a target unclaimable until it has existed for at least 1 minute.

[Prrsha]

^ Maybe square should make a target unclaimable until it has existed for at least 1 minute.

They kinda do already. Mobs appear as "dead" for a sec or two now to make it fair for other graphics cards to catch up.

[JediKitsune]

So...the people who have the various unfair advantages when it comes to mob claiming will always have them? That kinda...seriously sucks.

I know that SE is wasting time when they try to stop things like packet sniffers and whatnot, but knowing that they won't try almost simply condones the act. Knowing that, I'm seriously not sure if I'm going to make the effort to participate in endgame events or any sort of NM hunts.

[Alya Mizar (Tsybil)]

Still going to be able to react to data in your ram faster then a video card no matter what.

True, way faster.

While its a good idea under normal circumstances, in practice it does not help much.

The difference between a lower end card turned up high, and a top end card turnned down low are noticable by us mere felines. But it still is not going to help against the things you are talking about.

But people have been blaming their inability to claim targets on things like latency times and the distance difference to the server.

[Prrsha]

The macro spaming program in question doesn't really help vs a person spamming manually now. Due to the fact that a mob appears dead for a few key seconds.

As for memory sniffers they really don't give a person an edge unless they are part of a larger program that will select a given mob from a group of them.

[Tivia]

So...the people who have the various unfair advantages when it comes to mob claiming will always have them? That kinda...seriously sucks.

I know that SE is wasting time when they try to stop things like packet sniffers and whatnot, but knowing that they won't try almost simply condones the act. Knowing that, I'm seriously not sure if I'm going to make the effort to participate in endgame events or any sort of NM hunts.

Incorrect SE is not condoning it, nor ignoring it.

They are ignoring the packet sniffing because they are confident in their level of encryption and rightly so, it is one of the better structured packets I have seen in a long time.
As a fyi that "suppossed" packet sniffing bot was proven a hoax, it does in fact read memory not packets. So for them to attempt to target people trying to snif packets is pointless and a waste of resources.

However they are actively fighting the memory reading bots, Every single patch they do changes the memory offsets breaking every memory bot in one stroke. Until the new memory offsets are found it remains down. Now of course it usually only takes a few days but nonetheless they are doing this. As a quick comparison, WoW is taking a far less proactive stance. They claim to be banning a ton of people..however I hardly consider 700 or so noteworthy in a player base that exceeds 1.5million players. However the major difference in wow is they have had two patches since release that actually changed memory offsets. They rarly change them and Thus have made it impressively easy to write a memory translator.

Also there are some other things SE has done to actively curb botting outside this. So do not think that because they are choosing to ignore that one facet that they are ignoring the entire picture. They are simply choosing to focus on the part of the picture that actually matters.

[Kahvi]

What i believe SE's battle plan is.

Some quotes from Sun Tzu's The Art of War

A military operation involves deception. Even though you are competent, appear to be incompetent. Though effective, appear ineffective.

Attack when they are unprepared, make your move when they do not expect it.

The formation and procedure used by the military should not be divulged beforehand.

Take those three quotes from the Strategic Assesment section as you will. A prime example of this was the Valentines day Gilseller massacre. Up until that point, SE made it seem that gilsellers and cheats were going to overrun the servers. SE flexed a muscle and wiped out a lot of them at once to show who's the boss. It may seem that cheating is rampant, but SE works on combating it in the shadows.

a quote from the "Doing Battle" section
Therefore a wise general strives to feed off the enemy. Each pound of food taken from the enemy is equivilant to twenty pounds you provide by yourself.
A.K.A. Find the cheater, ban thier CD key, they buy another copy (rinse, repeat)

Quotes from the "Planning a siege" section

The general rule for use of the military is that it is better to keep a nation intact than to destroy it. It is better to keep an army intact than to destroy it, better to keep a division intact than to destroy it, better to keep a battalion intact than to destroy it, better to keep a unit intact than to destroy it.

Therefore those who win every battle are not really skillful -- those who render other's armies without fighting are the best of all.

Therefore the superior militarist strikes while schemes are being laid.

Basically, for games, the cheaters are not gonna go away entirely. The easier way to win against them is to disable them. Preferably while they are still regrouping from the last curve ball thown at them. but it would be hard to perform this without destroying thier user base with constant updates. so they compromise and end up doing a pretty good job in the process.

[Nobodyreal]

I just don't understand why SE doesn't take legal action against the gilsellers.

The user agreement for FFXI specifically prohibits any sort of Real Money Trading, so either they own up to it and get banned en-mass or they deny it, are found guilty of fraud, and get sued into the ground and/or in trouble with the law.

I've heard that a lot of the gilsellers are from countries where FFXI isn't officially available, so I'm not sure if legal action would actually work.

It's still a nice thought.

[Prrsha]

I just don't understand why SE doesn't take legal action against the gilsellers.

The user agreement for FFXI specifically prohibits any sort of Real Money Trading, so either they own up to it and get banned en-mass or they deny it, are found guilty of fraud, and get sued into the ground and/or in trouble with the law.

I've heard that a lot of the gilsellers are from countries where FFXI isn't officially available, so I'm not sure if legal action would actually work.

It's still a nice thought.

China could care less about law suits regarding copyright infringement, internet theft, or laws regarding counterfeit products. The constantly ignore those laws and laugh in the face of the companies who sue them. They think the entire corporate world is their playground and they can take whatever they want with little repercussions. I doubt square has a good chance against IGE (which is based in China).

[sakono]

i say that hackers should unite and destroy all of chinas computers^^ or atlest all that belong to people with ige accounts and such.

[Ephi]

i say send IGE 400,000 viruses

[Baketsu]

How about this?

A limit to the amount of money that can be transfered between players per 24 hour period. Something like say 50K or 100K, this would make it harder ont he gil sellers to actually send people the gil, however it would have a down side as people who are helping their friends out by helping them buy a nice peice of armor. Plus gill sellers could get around it by sending expensive uber armor instead.....

I know, Have a "COPS" type raid ont he gil selling sweatshops, that would be entertaining!!!

One other option would be to allow and endorse gil selling on a couple of servers or even 1/2 the servers and then prohibit it on the rest and heaviliy enforce it, [Note: I am not sure if you can transfer items/gil between servers]


Any of my ideas good? Or is this the fevered ranting of a crazy Elvaan?

[Nobodyreal]

How about this?

A limit to the amount of money that can be transfered between players per 24 hour period. Something like say 50K or 100K, this would make it harder ont he gil sellers to actually send people the gil, however it would have a down side as people who are helping their friends out by helping them buy a nice peice of armor. Plus gill sellers could get around it by sending expensive uber armor instead.....

I know, Have a "COPS" type raid ont he gil selling sweatshops, that would be entertaining!!!

One other option would be to allow and endorse gil selling on a couple of servers or even 1/2 the servers and then prohibit it on the rest and heaviliy enforce it, [Note: I am not sure if you can transfer items/gil between servers]


Any of my ideas good? Or is this the fevered ranting of a crazy Elvaan?

I'd vote "fevered ranting of a crazy Elvaan" myself. Doing the limits on how much gil you can transfer at once would barely slow them down. They'd just do things like buy a single earth crystal from whoever's bazaar for [insert whatever absurd amount of gil here], and piss the rest of us off, just like you said. Raiding the sweatshops is an amusing idea, but just like my idea of suing them, it wouldn't work against a Chinese group.

The last idea is just plain lunacy. It would be SE giving up and telling the gilsellers "Fine. You win, we give up, please ruin our economy even more than it already is.."

[Ephi]

i say hire space aliens to abduct IGE... pay them by saying they can get all the human test subjects from IGE and do w/e with them (ie probe, mutilate, feed to space cows, etc.)

[Baketsu]

I wonder if my fever has broken yet....

[xaresity]

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[xaresity]

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