Shoot first?

Okuza · Post by **Okuza** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 3:53 am

Well, if anyone is curious how GMs react to an AFK-bot report, I just had a chance to do one a little bit ago. This guy had been singing bard songs for *hours* while in Rolanberry bazaar with "afk, goodnight!" in his comment.

About 3m after I put the call in, I got a tell from a GM. At the same instant, this guy vanished from the zone. Standard GM conversation -- thanks for calling, I'll look into it, have a nice day, etc.. About 10m later, the guy reappeared in the same spot and ran off.

I'm guessing one of two things happened. They either jailed him first and then waited to see if he'd keep singing in jail. Or they popped up one of those "Are you really online!? Yes/No" boxes on him and he failed the test (what happens if you click "no", I wonder?). Either way the speed and nature of the response was pretty scary. I mean, what if a totally innocent regular player is accused in sky -- yoink, jail! Oh, sorry, you're real. I'll D2 you back to your HP. Have a nice day!

Ah, well, I hope if he was innocent that nothing bad happened to him. At least he stopped filling my sceeen with songs. ^^

Pheonixhawk · Post by **Pheonixhawk** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 4:03 am

why would you call a GM on him? Bot or not he was just skilling up..

Post by **Karou Ariyen** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 4:29 am

pheonix, remember there are only skillup bots on XI, no one is willing to waste their lives to skill up music/magic/summoning/ninjutsu

and I'm being sarcasticly silly

Post by **Sugami** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 1:26 pm

Okuza wrote:I mean, what if a totally innocent regular player is accused in sky -- yoink, jail! Oh, sorry, you're real. I'll D2 you back to your HP. Have a nice day!

Pseudo-MPKing or GM Player Kill (GMPK)

Can image the thousands of GM calls to get HNM campers sent to jail

Incidientally a while back when I mined in Oldton there's a gilseller blatently using a mining bot, can tell as his head kept bobbing between targets, I reported him 3 times and he's still there last I checked

GMs do sh*t about botters on Bahamut it seems

Post by **Tivia** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 1:38 pm

Pheonixhawk wrote:why would you call a GM on him? Bot or not he was just skilling up..

Seriously...

Keavy · Post by **Keavy** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 4:07 pm

Tivia wrote:
Pheonixhawk wrote:why would you call a GM on him? Bot or not he was just skilling up..
Seriously...

Because I and every other mage spends hours upon hours skilling up and we hate bots because those lazy PC bastards have an advantage that us PS2/Xbox 360 players don't.

Post by **Tivia** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 4:26 pm

Keavy wrote:
Tivia wrote:
Pheonixhawk wrote:why would you call a GM on him? Bot or not he was just skilling up..
Seriously...
Because I and every other mage spends hours upon hours skilling up and we hate bots because those lazy PC bastards have an advantage that us PS2/Xbox 360 players don't.

So it is a case of "Since I can't have then noone else can either"

Thanks for clearing that up, and reminding me why I thought console gamers and PC gamers being on the same server was the worst idea ever conceptualized.

Oh and..with a little creativity and a turbo controller Console gamers can duplicate the same thing with hardware, without the risk of getting banned. So truth be told I really do not want to hear about skill bots being unfair, I have seen it done with a turbo controller it is vastly easier then a good skill bot, if you want to get into throwing stones on laziness.

Pheonixhawk · Post by **Pheonixhawk** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 10:46 pm

Well I hope I don't stand around for hours like I usually do, casting my bar-spells for hours in one spot trying to skill up. I may get a GM call... I mean, we all know Skill up bots are far far worse than RMT...

ScarlettPheonix · Post by **ScarlettPheonix** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 11:10 pm

Cheating is cheating however you look at it and there is nothing to say that someone caught botting skill-ups doesn't bot or use hacks for other things that are "too boring" to do either.

On another note- I've never understood why some RDMs will skill up enhancing by spamming bar spells. With Refresh, Haste and soloing where you need to use the more solo enhancing based spells- at just about any level RDMs should be able to cap enhancing skill pretty quickly and its a damned sight less boring.

I'm so glad SE changed how Smns get skill levels- I absolutely hated standing outside and summoning for hours to get skill levels, now I can just solo to cap my skill levels.^^

Pheonixhawk · Post by **Pheonixhawk** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 11:18 pm

It's not about supporting cheating. It's about the way he/she called a GM on a person just standing there skilling up, that he/she suspected was a bot without even sending them a tell. So what if it said afk good night in the bazaar comment. He could of been forgetful like me, and not changed his message. Or prolly just didn't want to be bothered while skilling up. True, skill up bots are cheating, but at the same time, there not really making the game a worse place... Should they still be banned? depends on how bad you belive the offense was. For people who get thier skill ups easy anyway, and love grinding to get them up, then they see it as fun ,and " He is just missing out." BUT for those who spend countless hours grinding, and swearing, and ripping out thier hair to skill up a skill they don't want to bother doing, and then come across a skill up bot, then they probably see it as the worse crime in the game.

ScarlettPheonix · Post by **ScarlettPheonix** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 11:53 pm

If it was a real player simply not answering any tells then its something that would be easily resolved between him and the GM.

If it was someone botting- then yes, he does have an advantage over someone who raises their skill the way the developers intended since they're using a bot to raise thier skill without any effort. A botter can simply walk away from the keyboard and go do something else while his skill is raised. How is that fair to someone who actually stays at the keyboard/controller?

Even a rumble controller needs input so really, stop fooling yourselves- if you bot for skill ups when someone else actually takes the time to do it correctly- you're cheating and deserve any punishment you get.

Okuza · Post by **Okuza** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 1:41 am

Well, we can get philosophical about it: here we have a guy who went out and located a 3rd party tool and programmed it to skill up his songs. It might have been as simple as using a programmable controller with the PC. It might have been a full blow ACtool script. So, I'm to believe that the only reason he went through all that effort was to skill songs? Uh, right. If we don't catch 'em when we can, it will be really hard to catch them when we can't. There's almost no way you can report a claim-bot to a GM and have that person caught. The only real way to catch a botter is to catch 'em doing something while AFK. So, that's what I did.

OTH, if you want a more practical reason, I suspect 90% of the reason I did it was that I found the "Soandso sings Etude" spam to be rather annoying. I could have filtered it out and ignored him, but what kind of idiot goes AFK and starts spamming "Imabot!" in Rolanberry Fields!?

It's damn easy to tell the difference between a bot and a real person skilling up. Bots have clockwork precision in their skilling. People don't. This guy had been skilling for hours non-stop with perfect precision.

Post by **Sugami** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 1:29 pm

Tivia wrote:Thanks for clearing that up, and reminding me why I thought console gamers and PC gamers being on the same server was the worst idea ever conceptualized.

I thought it was 'cause console users are generally pre-pubescent children that have nothing better to do than play games all day and call everyone "gay"

Pheonixhawk wrote:It's not about supporting cheating. It's about the way he/she called a GM on a person just standing there skilling up, that he/she suspected was a bot without even sending them a tell. So what if it said afk good night in the bazaar comment...

Cry me a f-ing river. If I saw a blatent botter and thought a GM would do something about it I'd call 'em just for shits and giggles.

As Scarlett said, cheating is cheating, there's no defense for it.

Post by **Tivia** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 2:47 pm

I have a better idea, how about Devs quit putting in skills that require repetitive button mashing for hours on end? then and only then will you get me to agree that all bots should be banned.

In the end it is personal preference. I used a skill raiser..hell I was the original one who created it for this game for Ac Tools. As for other type bots to make money and such, no I did not and have no desire to I enjoy playing a game. Button mashing for hours on end causing my carpal tunnel to flare up is not my idea of fun or playing a game so, sorry never going to convince me it is cheating. Raising casting skills that should keep up under normal leveling circumstances anyhow, is in no way shape or form an advantage.

If they have finally fixed that where you can keep your skills capped then, yes the bot is unnecessary. However it sounds like it is the same crap as when I left of having to stand around for hours button mashing to raise skills, Sorry I just do not find that fun or reasonable to be in game. Seriously skill raising is petty and trivial, go after real cheaters; Those farming gil, NMs, Claim bots, Fishers, etc. There are more then enough of those to keep you permanently employed, while leaving those who just do not want to mash the same damn button for no reason over and over for hours on end alone. Honestly if you have time to go after the latter group, then you seriously need to reevaluate if this game is still fun for you because evidently you have too much time on your hands.

Concerning the controller requiring you..once again Creativity is key.

ScarlettPheonix · Post by **ScarlettPheonix** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 3:53 pm

/sigh

This has been brought up before countless times and the fact remains that any 3rd party program that bots, hacks, whatever, is against the ToS and anyone caught using these types of programs are subject to whatever the GMs feel is necessary in punishment.

Hardware, like the controllers, are not against the ToS so stop using them to justify your botting.

To pull from an old discussion about the same thing (I did say that this topic has come up before didn't I?

)

Tsybil wrote:
Tivia wrote: a Well written ingame macro, a Programmable piece of hardware such as a nostromo game pad, turbo controller, etc, and a script that all achieve the same Exact goal, are in effect Exactly the same.
(Emphasis added)

I will agree, in effect. One small difference. That famed contract, the ToSA, forbids scripting. Using a well written ingame macro or a programmable piece of hardware such as a nostromo game pad, turbo controller, etc CANNOT get you banned or jailed. Running scripts can.

In this example it is not a big difference. In many other places in the game it is. Is there a macro or programmable piece of hardware that can do to NM hunting what some of the scripts can? Would you prefer to be healed by a macro using person or a WHMbot?

I have always thought of raising Summoning Skill as a lot like homework. Better graphics but not as interesting as most homework is all.

A zero tolerance policy is a zero tolerance policy, doesn't matter if you're a "legit" player in every other way- you still cheated to raise your skills.

Post by **Tivia** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 4:14 pm

Point is, do not waste your time going after skill raisers who are not hurting your game experience. If the GM catches them so be it, I am not disputing the TOS. Go after the true problems as previously mentioned, or just play the game. Reporting skill raisers is petty and smacks of a "I'm telling mommy" attitude.

ScarlettPheonix · Post by **ScarlettPheonix** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 5:06 pm

Please- you yourself have said that you botted (aka cheated) and you say you don't dispute the ToS?

How is that not disputing it? If you don't "dispute" it- then one would think you'd be obeying and supporting it, which you apparently don't.

Petty, maybe, but its quite common in all fields of law/rule enforcement to charge and hold known criminals on what they can prove before a court of law and many times someone's turned in because someone else "ran crying to Mommy."

Many mob and drug dealers are often put in prison for "tax evasion"- a pretty petty crime when you consider the deaths that some of these people either ordered or caused outright. Why? because that's what they could get them on.

Honestly, just because you can do something doesn't mean you should, and in the case of botting- there's no reason to do it at all.

Post by **Tivia** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 5:29 pm

I am not disputing that the TOS determines it as cheating. I understood the TOS and I chose to disagree with its definition. Once again If a GM had caught me, that was my choice. I disagreed with the definition because the standard laid out in it was not even across the board. Botting so long as it was done with hardware is acceptable, they only ban for software.

However the comparison to Petty crimes in RL is a bit of a stretch. Once again the example you gave someone profits monetarily speaking.

How does one profit from raising skill? You do not make gil, you do not get any advantage over another player as this is not PVP. It will not get you groups faster, it does not get you loot over another player. As a matter of fact it does not interfere with another players ability to play the game at all, outside a minor bit of spam which is easily ignored or if the skill raiser is considerate they go to a non populated area. So really until you can compare this to something that makes your gameplay experience bad outside your personal moral standards, it is petty and trivial and you are wasting your time and being a tart reporting it. Once again, there are Vastly more using bots and scripts that DO give an unfair edge and Do interfere with your gameplay in a negative way so, Outside of the Above statements I made Why waste your time reporting them?
The only thing the person is doing is taking a risk on themselves that a GM will bust them on a petty law so they can sate their desire to keep their skills maxed without mashing the same bleeding button mindlessly for hours when they would far rather be playing the game when they are able. I did not pay $15 a month to mash one button for 15 hours...I pay $15 for 15 hours of Entertainment. Those who still skill raise are paying the same $15 for the same entertainment you are, Stop being a holier then thou and infringing on their gameplay when they are not bothering you. Now as for the ones infringing on your gameplay feel free to report them.

However this is likely a case where we will have to agree to disagree. You are never going to convince me and I am sure the likewise is true.

Kintrra · Post by **Kintrra** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 7:29 pm

Tivia wrote:Stop being a holier then thou and infringing on their gameplay when they are not bothering you.

How's it infringing on their gameplay if they're not at their keyboard playing?

ScarlettPheonix · Post by **ScarlettPheonix** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 8:24 pm

Oh we definitely disagree, but I seriously doubt I’ll be able to ever “agree to disagree” on this subject. We all have our buttons and things that we get riled up about- and this is one of them for me.

You call it a stretch- ok fine. It was, however, the first thing that came to mind when you called it a petty offense to call a GM about so feel free to call it far fetched or not- you and others reading it got my point which is all that counts.

How does botting for skill-ups give you an advantage over someone who doesn’t use a bot?

Well, in purely real life terms- someone who does skills up properly has to monitor they’re character so they’re pretty much leashed to being in the same room as the game. A botter isn’t limited to this- they can just let the program run while they leave the keyboard, room or even house and go do whatever they want. Hell, they could even go to sleep and wake up to capped skill(s).

Skill botters have higher skill levels quicker and depending on the type of skill we’re talking about- everything just became easier. Spells land better and for stronger, weapons hit more, you catch more fish; can make better items, whatever.

By botting for your skill ups, you’re taking a short cut to reach a level that others have to work for and last time I checked- that’s cheating. If you want an analogy that shouldn’t be too much of a stretch- skill up botting is like taking steroids and in just about any sport league you want to name its illegal.

I don’t care what anyone says- if someone “is just botting to skill up <blank> magic skill”, what’s to stop them from botting on other things too and who’s to say they’re telling the truth?

Everyone who logs into this game agrees to obey the ToS in its entirety, not pick and choose what rules they want to follow. The latter mindset leads to anarchy and in the case of FFXI- rampant RMT.

Either play this game by following the rules SE has determined ensures fair play for everyone involved, or find another game to play.

Note- My use of the pronoun “you” after the 2nd paragraph is used in the general sense. Its not directed at anyone in particular.

Okuza · Post by **Okuza** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 9:45 pm

The crux of the issue isn't skill-botting versus harmful-botting. It's botting in general. Personally, I don't care if someone skill-bots -- if they do it where the spam isn't anoying and if that's all they're botting. Unfortunately, there is no way to know if that's the only reason they're botting. I tend to think skill-botting is just the tip of the iceberg. It's FAR better to catch a botter when he's doing something stupid and easy to result in a ban than to catch one using a claim-tool at Ulli.

The harmful bot activities are pretty much impossible to detect and even harder to ban or jail.

Pheonixhawk · Post by **Pheonixhawk** » Wed Nov 01, 2006 12:20 am

Sugami wrote:
Tivia wrote:Thanks for clearing that up, and reminding me why I thought console gamers and PC gamers being on the same server was the worst idea ever conceptualized.
I thought it was 'cause console users are generally pre-pubescent children that have nothing better to do than play games all day and call everyone "gay"

Pheonixhawk wrote:It's not about supporting cheating. It's about the way he/she called a GM on a person just standing there skilling up, that he/she suspected was a bot without even sending them a tell. So what if it said afk good night in the bazaar comment...
Cry me a f-ing river. If I saw a blatent botter and thought a GM would do something about it I'd call 'em just for shits and giggles.

As Scarlett said, cheating is cheating, there's no defense for it.

Well Sugami, if you feel that way, when all im saying is make sure your positive the person is doing something wrong before you call them in, and have them thrown in jail, then I have nothing more to say on this thread. Im not supporting cheating of any kind. But please have the damn courtesy to make sure your 100% positive thier in the wrong. Other than, "He was annoying me, so I think he was botting." Yes I did read the other posts and I understand that it's bad to send them a tell before calling a GM. It gives them a chance to get away. I didn't know that at first. But take caution before reporting is all im saying. Personally I wouldnt waste time on catching Skill up botters, because I find them at less of a threat atm. However if you catch one REPORT THEM IN. This is the point I have been trying to get across in my previous posts. I understand that Skill Up bots to people who grind and work hard on thier skill ups, really tick them off. I myself struggle getting my sword skill and healing / enhancing magic up there (No matter how many times I cast refresh etc etc. Enhancing magic just doesn't Skill up ><) But still I just say screw people with Skill Up bots. I personally just ignore them. That is why I said earlier "Bot or not, he was just skilling up." However, if you try to talk to me about defending RMT and ill be the first to stabby you, many many times.

Sakino · Post by **Sakino** » Wed Nov 01, 2006 3:15 am

Kintrra wrote:
Tivia wrote:Stop being a holier then thou and infringing on their gameplay when they are not bothering you.
How's it infringing on their gameplay if they're not at their keyboard playing?

Best comment yet.

Post by **Sugami** » Wed Nov 01, 2006 1:57 pm

It's not like we're going out of our way to find people with skillup bots, if I bumped into one and was bothered enough to report to a GM I would.

If they weren't botting they'd clear it up with the GM in a minute, no harm done. If they were then hello suspended account

As it's been said if they're using a skillup bot then what's to say they aren't or haven't been using fishing bots, mining bots or various other bots? Get caught you only have yourself to blaim.

Post by **Tivia** » Wed Nov 01, 2006 2:55 pm

Fishing bots are not of what I speak, those are a clear advantage, quit dragging that into the conversation.

Last I checked and it has been a very long time since I played, SE put a patch in where summoning skill and enhancing magic skill do not affect the power of the spell specifically to negate the usefulness of the skill bots. At that time, the only reason to use one was for those of us who are pretty much anal and simply must have all skills capped.

As for how you are infringing on their gameplay? You get them suspended over something stupid and trivial and you fail to see how that is infringing? Wow I cannot believe I am having to even muster a response to the obviousness of that. They are performing an action that does not affect you, is not gaining them levels or money or getting them parties faster, you take it upon yourself to get them banned and that is not infringing? Ok... Once again if they are claim botting, Fishing, running around using an enfeeble bot killing everything in the newbie area, that I can surely understand. chain casting protect, songs, or summons...seriously leave them alone and find something better to do with your time, If you have time to target people doing that then clearly the game is not entertaining you enough.

The main reason I get so bent out of shape over the above attitude is I run into it in every game in various forms. People see something they do not like so it suddenly becomes their personal moral crusade to stop everyone else. Right now as a good example I am playing D&D Online and they just implemented auction houses, Trading is what is fun to me so I have used my money to basically monopolize certain high end loots and jack their prices up. This risk of buying and reselling is what is fun to me, yet I have half a dozen assholes reporting me to GMs just about every single day accusing me of botting, abusing the system yadda yadda you name it. I literally know the 3 GMs on my server by first name I have had to speak with them so often. They realize I am not doing anything wrong, I am just playing the game in the manner I find fun. Fortunately botting is not an issue in DDO simply because your skills match your level at all times, they were smart enough not to add trivial time consuming bs into the game. What is my point? My point is it is the same pervasive attitude that targets me on the auction house that targeted me for skill raisers in FFXI and Also for the AH in FFXI, and for the AH in WoW and pretty much every bloody game I have played.

Hell I do not even remember the last time I played a game where I was not on a first name basis with the server GMs, simply because People like the above think it is their duty to report anyone whom they dictate is breaking the rules regardless of if they actually are or not. You know what? I have yet to ever be suspended or banned from a game. However I have as a result attained an extremely high disdain for those who perpetuate this behavior because to be honest they are infringing on my gameplay because I end up wasting a minimum of about an hour just about every damn night defending myself against these idiots. So yea perhaps I am getting a little jaded about it all and Wish people would find something better to do then continually stick their nose into someone else's business. The only comment I have for people who do this is, "If you are bored enough to waste your time trying to cause headache for me, Find another Game because obviously this one does not excite you enough". Because if the game entertained you enough outside the Blatant cheaters who are in fact Ruining the game experience you would not have time to notice those who are at most stretching the rules.

while I am on the subject of rule stretching, if you are in fact so against it. Make sure you are never part of parties or raids that make a habit of exploiting bad pathing, or any number of a hundred other ingame situations that make a Boss/NM/Mob easier to kill then it should be due to a glitch, or situation the Developers did not plan on, because if you want to get into comparatives that is on the same level. I bring this up because I lost count of the number of times idiots reporting me turned around and gladly partook in the killing of a monster via some exploit because it gained them quick and easy loot.

One Word..Hypocrisy.

Sakino · Post by **Sakino** » Wed Nov 01, 2006 5:06 pm

This has been rehashed so may times on this forum, I only have this to add:

You RENT the character you play in FFXI. You don't own the character, his/her items nor any of the data on their server. You pay a monthly fee to use their servers but the data on them belongs to SE.

Because of that, SE can really make any "rule" they wish to because you the consumer agree to their policies every time you log on to the game. If SE wanted to ban your character because your name looked funny they could do so. If they wanted to discontinue FFXI and no longer run the servers your characters would be gone. They would not have to compensate you for anything.

It's SE's game and they dictate how (in their mind) it should be played. If you don't like the rules, vote with your wallet.

Eviticus · Post by **Eviticus** » Wed Nov 01, 2006 6:55 pm

Despite the fact that I am anti-bot for any reason once so ever, even skilling up, I just have to say this. So crappy calls like yours to GM's are the reason why my legit calls say I have to wait for 90 people first?

But no, really. It is cheating, but it doesn't really affect you...or anyone....period. If there was something you could do about it directly, great, do it. But GM's are a very busy people, that isn't worth calling one.

Sakino · Post by **Sakino** » Wed Nov 01, 2006 9:26 pm

Eviticus wrote:Despite the fact that I am anti-bot for any reason once so ever, even skilling up, I just have to say this. So crappy calls like yours to GM's are the reason why my legit calls say I have to wait for 90 people first?

But no, really. It is cheating, but it doesn't really affect you...or anyone....period. If there was something you could do about it directly, great, do it. But GM's are a very busy people, that isn't worth calling one.

I have to agree to some extent. Calling a GM with no proof is a waste of time and may get an innocent player banned. For the most part simple common sence can apply if the person in question is fishing 24/7 for days on end. But just because you see a person with a ? above their head and Lu Shang's Rod equiped doesn't mean he is a botter.

Kintrra · Post by **Kintrra** » Wed Nov 01, 2006 11:18 pm

I'm still confused how you're infringing on their gameplay if they're not at their keyboard playing.

Me personally, I'm not gonna bother to report someone skill-botting, but I'm not gonna sit there and go "You capped your skill, {Good job!}, because frankly? I find it a piss-poor excuse to use one, just cuz you want to have capped skills. You want capped skills, you should work for them. Shirai capped her {Summoning Magic} without using a bot. And that's before it was even possible to get skill ups just from using Blood Pacts. I'd rather level with someone like Shirai, who got their skill honestly. To me, if you don't do the work for your skill, you have no pride in what you've done. There's no sense of accomplishment in setting up a bot and leaving your keyboard. I've capped sword, Shield, Evasion in every level on NIN, I'm working on capping Staff for PLD, Great Sword, Dagger, and slowly working on skilling up Great Katana and Throwing for NIN. I can't just bot away these skills. It's not possible. And I'd feel pretty stupid for doing so if I could.

Capped skills are pretty, yes. But even better is the sense of accomplishment in knowing that you did the work to get them there.

Post by **Karou Ariyen** » Thu Nov 02, 2006 5:27 am

*calls in T-1000 Units* Okay Children Play Nice Or They Start Running Amuck ^_^

MithraPride

Shoot first?

Shoot first?

Re: Shoot first?