Macro's and Worthless Numbers

Pheonixhawk · Post by **Pheonixhawk** » Mon Oct 09, 2006 11:46 pm

You know what I've noticed. Out of all the posts and forums half of them I only read for the initial 10 posts. Why? Because then you melee guys start talking about .... well... gear and numbers. I mean literally, Ill start reading and I'm like.... 567 - 6334 dmg at 46% but "insert gear ive never heard of here" to increase to 93%.... what the heck are they talking about. But what's more amazing is that you guys will even respond to it and start talking about stats and damage percentage and all I can do is kinda skim over to the next post hoping I could understand it. It's just like when ninja's make an extremely long macro with Japanese words and then translate the actual attack at the end and I'm like... wha.... Or when people make a macro that give's no clue whatsoever of what Job ability or Weapon skill or Spell their about to do/ cast. Maybe it's because I play a mage and only a mage, and don't really care about any stat other than Mnd and Int. That and my macro's are plain. "Casting "Spell" on <t>". Maybe all players know this information and I'm just a noob that somehow glided to lvl 69. Or possibly you could all just be computer geeks lol. At any rate im just curious, I can understand saying where you get +17 Vit or something like that from. Obviously it says so on the gear. But what about all these percentages and what not. Did I miss something important along the way perhaps?

Gabryel · Post by **Gabryel** » Tue Oct 10, 2006 12:18 am

Lol I'm sure it can be very intimidating and confusing if you've never heard of what the raw+modified stats can do to different jobs and abilities, but really its simple. Lemme give you a quick chart to explain most of what works.

STR: every 2 gives +1 attack, also helps out 90% of all WS out there

DEX: every 2 gives +1 accuracy, also helps out certain WSs(THF ones mostly) and increases the possible dmg from Sneak Attack

VIT: every 2 gives +1 defense, also helps out a couple WSs, and increases the amount the ability Chakra can heal

AGI: every 2 gives +1 Ranged accuracy, also helps out certain WSs(RNG ones mostly) , increases the possible damage from Trick Attack, and helps latent job and combat abilities to proc. (Counter, Double Attack, etc. Parrying, Evasion, Guarding, etc.)

CHR: There are varying arguements about this stat, and frankly I do not know exactly what it does.

INT and MND you alrdy know (as you said, lol)

There's abit more each one can do, but these are the most common ways you'll actually see them affect your character's performance.

Pheonixhawk · Post by **Pheonixhawk** » Tue Oct 10, 2006 12:32 am

That clears things up a bit more. Thx ^^

Kintrra · Post by **Kintrra** » Tue Oct 10, 2006 1:50 am

As to the percentages and such, I'm sure you're referring to us talking about such and such stat boosting such percentage of some WS?

http://www.iluvitar.com/sections/ffxi/s ... lated.html

On that page (which looks confusing at first, I know) it gives a damage formula for each WS. Me personally, I ignore the formula (like I won't find out how much damage it did anyway? lol). The only things on there that I pay attention to are which stats boost which WS. And then I make sure to pump those stats for that attack.

Accuracy percentages can pretty much only be gotten from a parser. So those are pretty much a "well my parser read out this much" type of deal.

And don't worry if it all sounds pretty confusing. Mages have it just as hard as us melee, even worse a lot of times, so it all balances out. ^^

Keavy · Post by **Keavy** » Tue Oct 10, 2006 3:34 am

I'm quickly turning into a numbers mage. I look for equipment to boost my Mind for Cure V, MP for, well, keeping the tank alive

and +hMP for when Refresh simply isn't enough. I want that initial tic to be as high as it can be since there are times that that's all I get.

Right now I have an Antivenom Earring I wear at all times then I macro in Seer's Tunic and Baron's Slops along with my Dark Staff for healing and I am saving up for a Grandoise Chain to macro in as well and I have a Hierarch belt waiting for me at level 71. Also, after I get the chain I am going to save up for an Errant Houppelande (Mahatma Houppelande if gil rains from the sky) to replace my Seer's.

Pheonixhawk · Post by **Pheonixhawk** » Tue Oct 10, 2006 5:26 am

We only have it hard, if the party leader's make it hard. In a way it's hard on the rdm because sometimes even the smn's, whm's and blm's don't understand that we may be versatile, but we cant do EVERYTHING at a constant rate without back up. I usually don't care what type of party im in, but I would at least like a Brd or whm there along with me. Just me main healing by myself at lvl 67-70 SUCKS. They pull and pull and pull non-stop. It's sad when I tell them to slow it down some and they reply "Just use convert." Thats the one line that makes me go from passive mode to asshole mode. Usually the first thing I reply with is "It has a 10 minute timer ass." honestly

Okuza · Post by **Okuza** » Tue Oct 10, 2006 6:16 am

The reason it sounds like a lot of nonsense when listening to melee chant about the numbers is because that's mostly what it is. The stats really do have an effect, but ultimately, it's damn small on the scale of things. In FFXI most of your effectiveness is determined by your level, not your gear. A character in average gear is virtually identical to one in the very best gear imaginable -- maybe 10-20% difference. It might be easier to do things with 18 players all in top gear, but there's nothing those same players couldn't do in regular gear.

People still want to improve their characters after they hit 75 -- gotta be *something* to do besides level a new job or merit forever. So, melee start crunching numbers and struggling over a few percent here and there.

Anyway, here are some additional details on stats if you're really curious. Most of Gabryel's list is accurate; this just adds some minor tidbits and corrections.

--

ATK: How effective you are at overcoming your target's DEF (more atk, more damage). Generally rather linear with more atk = more damage. At a rought guess, +10 ATK = +1% damage.

DEF: How effective you are at taking damage (more def, less damage). Like ATK, this one is also pretty linear.

STR: +1 = +0.5 atk. STR determines how effective you are at overcoming your target's VIT and factors into many physical WS's. Has a stepwise effect -- once over the VIT threshold, returns from more STR are not linear wrt. damage.

DEX: +1 = +0.5 acc & 0.01% crit given. For main THF only, +1 DEX = +1 base damage for sneak attack. Acc&Crit are empirical guesses -- no one *knows* for sure, but it's probably pretty close.

AGI: +1 = +0.5 r.acc, +0.5 eva, & -0.01% crit taken. Seems to increase passive defensive skill activation (parry, counter, guard). It does not increase any offensive JT activation rates (eg. double & attack). For main THF only, +1 AGI = +1 base damage for trick attack.

VIT: +1 = +0.5 def and reduces damage from high STR attacks. Stepwise, like STR. Beat your target's STR and you take a lot less all of a sudden.

CHR: Improves charm success & duration (bst, brd) and increases killer-effect activations. It doesn't help Enmity or Provoke. Primary stat for Dancing-Edge WS (weird, but true).

INT: +1 = +0.5 m.atk, m.acc, & m.def for int-based spells (mostly blm'ish things). Primary for all Ninjutsu -- damage and debuffs.

MND: same as int but for mnd-based spells (mostly whm'ish stuff). Determines base damage for monk's Chi-blast.

HNM tidbit -- I've heard 100 STR & 100 VIT touted as magic numbers for either tanking or doing damage to HNMs. On XP, more str/vit doesn't seem to much matter; you're already past critter str/vit for the most part. This kind of matches what I've experienced myself, but the jump difference isn't quite as "omg, wow!" as I've seen on web. It's more "oh, that's better".

--

The one thing that's true about all stats is that it takes a whole lot of +stat to actually make a real difference. You usually get much more out of direct +atk, +acc, +def, +etc.. It's also why the Osode doesn't parse well for DD during XP compared to other things. Kinda funny that such a highly desired item by so many isn't really all that hot; it's more of a good general-purpose body that isn't top in any one category.

IMHO, this is a very good thing. I've played EQ and WOW and they're exactly the oposite. In those games, your character doesn't matter much. It's all gear. Your gear in those games sways character performance by 10x or more. I made a level 1 char in EQ for fun with ~1500hp by giving it gear I didn't need. A normal level 1 character has ~10hp. There are things in those games you can't do without sufficiently nice gear.

So, if you think the struggle for gear here is kinda ridiculous -- well, you're right. But, it's all we have left to work on at 75.

Eviticus · Post by **Eviticus** » Tue Oct 10, 2006 9:35 am

Funny. See, I have the same aversion to people who type text walls and don't know the meaning of the word paragraph. >.>

Post by **Sugami** » Tue Oct 10, 2006 12:25 pm

Don't mean to knit-pick (well actually I do) but you may want to re-examine your use of apostrophes. They're used for abbreviation not pluralizing

Gabryel wrote:STR: every 2 gives +1 attack, also helps out 90% of all WS out there

STR helps every WS be it directly or indirectly, as it's used in the standard damage calculation.

Also I believe there's like a cap limit, like once you hit 60 then the numbers start to drop off a little. 2 STR will be more like 0.9 Attack or something but I'm unsure of the details *shrug*

ScarlettPheonix · Post by **ScarlettPheonix** » Tue Oct 10, 2006 1:08 pm

To nitpick....several of the best enfeebles in the RDM arsenal are best used with mnd to boost their potency.

Paralyze I/II, Slow I/II in particular.

RDMs by and far tend to be among the worst offenders for number slinging- getting the most out of Slow's effect, the best ways to boost our melee skills and so on. Its not just the forums either- my sky linkshell has 4 rdms currently and we when we get going the rest of the linkshell is always like "Um...guys? Speak normal please."

More gobblydegook speak:

M.Attk- Magic Attack, used to boost damage from damage spells.

M.Acc- Increases chance of your spell landing or landing unresisted. Can be helpful but having more skill (ie. more Enfeebling Skill) has more of an effect.

M.Def- Increases your defense against magic- helpful but barelement/effect spells tend to work better.

Post by **Alya Mizar (Tsybil)** » Tue Oct 10, 2006 4:22 pm

About those numbers... most melees ignore the numbers as long as they seem to hit enough. The ones who talk numbers are boring.

About /p lines in macros... I am a 24/8 RPer. In parties I RP a quite busy RDM who needs to save her breath for casting. The only /p lines needed are the TP/WS ones and the mages' MP reports.

About parties that go too fast... there are sneaky ways to slow a party down. Overcureing is a common and easily spotted one. Another is to Haste a DD in light armor. MNKs are about the best but try SAMs and DRKs too. Doesn't work on RNGs, Haste does not speed up Ranged Attacks. This works even better if you do it just as the NIN's haste wears.

Hasted the MNK, sorrry

Burning MPs with Elemental Debuffs or the occasional nuke is good or just reapply your debuffs.

/p MPs = <mp>, <mpp>. HP = <hp>. TP = What's TP?
Then tell them how many mins till Convert. You cannot put /recast in a /p line so feel free to fib a bit.

MPs = 7/798, 1%. HP = 998/998, TP = What's TP?
Convert in 2.5 mins.

This will slow them right down. If it doesn't just use your few MPs to cast your debuffs, otherwise, stay down for the MPs.

Tinacat · Post by **Tinacat** » Tue Oct 10, 2006 4:32 pm

CHR: There are varying arguements about this stat, and frankly I do not know exactly what it does.

For thf, CHR helps with {Dancing Edge}, and helps with {Treasure Hunter}

Post by **Alya Mizar (Tsybil)** » Tue Oct 10, 2006 4:57 pm

Tinacat wrote:
CHR: There are varying arguements about this stat, and frankly I do not know exactly what it does.
For thf, CHR helps with {Dancing Edge}, and helps with {Treasure Hunter}

For BST it helps Charm rate and duration. For BRD it does almost nothing.

Squenix has stated that it does nothing for Provoke.

Post by **Sugami** » Tue Oct 10, 2006 5:23 pm

I thought CHR helped BRD land offensive songs but does crap-all for buffs.

Magic Accuracy is more "potent" than the equivalent skill.

e.g. Magic Accuracy +1 > Enfeebling Skill +1

However Accuracy is only about not getting resisted, Skill increases accuracy and potency (or damage).

And yes CHR is a modifier for Dancing Edge (something like 33%) but no THF equips any CHR gear for it

Tinacat · Post by **Tinacat** » Tue Oct 10, 2006 5:39 pm

af2 feet ftw

ScarlettPheonix · Post by **ScarlettPheonix** » Tue Oct 10, 2006 7:55 pm

Sugami wrote:I thought CHR helped BRD land offensive songs but does crap-all for buffs.

Magic Accuracy is more "potent" than the equivalent skill.

e.g. Magic Accuracy +1 > Enfeebling Skill +1

However Accuracy is only about not getting resisted, Skill increases accuracy and potency (or damage).

And yes CHR is a modifier for Dancing Edge (something like 33%) but no THF equips any CHR gear for it

Exactly what I was trying to get at when I said its better to have skill then M.Acc in general. For spells that have no partial resist, they either land or they don't- M.Acc is great but for everything else skill+ wins.

Okuza · Post by **Okuza** » Tue Oct 10, 2006 9:49 pm

CHR doesn't help {Treasure Hunter}. Millionaire's desk doesn't help gil-finder or treasure hunter. Trump crown doesn't help treasure hunter. Nothing helps treasure hunter except thf's knife (+1%) and assassin's gloves (+1%). There was a guy that farmed the hell out of pso'xja chips and recorded the drop rates with and without knife, gloves, and other stuff (I think he did lucky egg and clovers, too). The "+1" doesn't really give you TH3 and TH4 -- it's TH2+1-2% really; ie. the items (like most things in FFXI), don't change the basic JT much at all.

This won't stop people from believing in the mystique of TH4, though. The other day we camped water in sky. 5 kills, 2 water. (Normal rate is about 1:100). Everyone was kissing my feet and crowing about how wonderful TH4 was. I didn't correct them.

Favorite line when things don't drop: Oh, sorry. I forgot to activate {Treasure Hunter} before it died. Every now and then someone gets really truly mad at me for "not turning TH on" after I say that. Sometimes I try "wait, don't kill it. TH isn't up yet. It will be ready in ~2m!"

--

BTW, on the MND & slow potency topic, I recall hearing about a RDM that got her MND up high enough that she could overwrite Hojo with Slow-I.

ScarlettPheonix · Post by **ScarlettPheonix** » Tue Oct 10, 2006 11:19 pm

Yea, its possible. You need to pile on the MND gear though. You're basically trying to get to a certain amount of MND higher then the mobs and at that point Slow I will overwrite Hojo.

Bitneko · Post by **Bitneko** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 12:43 am

Well... there's been a rumor on the PUP forums that CHR helps with overloading. I don't know if anyone has tested it out yet. Just tossing that out into the discussion.

Thu Oct 12, 2006 10:48 pm

Sugami wrote:I thought CHR helped BRD land offensive songs but does crap-all for buffs.

That is almost nothing. Ask a BRD about resist rates on offensive songs.

Post by **Sugami** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 12:41 pm

I've seen a BRD have a lot of trouble trying to land lullaby but that may be from level difference more than anything else.

MittensValefor · Post by **MittensValefor** » Sat Oct 14, 2006 12:55 pm

Magic-Based Weapon Skills = ( ((((( Lv+2+WSC ) * fTP + fINT ) * Resist) * Elemental Staves) * Weather) * MDIF ) * Magic Damage Cut

Physical-Based Weapon Skills = WD * PDIF = (( D + fSTR + WSC) * fTP) * PDIF

fINT = 8 + ΔINT/2

WSC = integer[(100 x 0.3) + (100 x 0.3)] x @ = integer(60) x @ = 60 x .86 (@ is 0.86 - 0.87 at LV67)

WD = ( D + fSTR + WSC) * fTP

Note: Suspected that for Sneak Attack with THF main, the calculation is WD = ( D + fSTR + WSC) * fTP + DEX + AGI

Hope that clears everything up. Source: http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Calculatin ... ill_Damage

Another fun read aparently quoted from the Vana'diel Tribune: http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Skillchain_Effects

(BTW I dunno what that all means either.)

Post by **Sugami** » Sun Oct 15, 2006 11:32 am

I think you can basically simplify it to:

(standard damage + modifiers) * multiplier

That's how I see it anyway, Slug Shot (uses 30% AGI modifier x4 multiplier) with AGI:100 and standard damage of 80:

(80 + .3*100) * 4 = (80+30)*4 = 110*4 = 440 (ish)

I may be completely wrong

xaresity · Post by **xaresity** » Sat Mar 16, 2024 10:33 am

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xaresity · Post by **xaresity** » Sat Apr 06, 2024 4:18 pm

MithraPride

Macro's and Worthless Numbers

Macro's and Worthless Numbers

Re: Macro's and Worthless Numbers

Re: Macro's and Worthless Numbers