Secks thy name is /SAM

Post by **Sugami** » Fri Sep 29, 2006 5:14 pm

Linky

*drool* so who'll be leveling their SAM to 37?

Gabryel · Post by **Gabryel** » Fri Sep 29, 2006 7:28 pm

OOOOOoooooo That's gonna be a interesting adjustment, hehe perfect reason to dust off the O'l Warrior Rhydia and have some war/sam fun! (Hellooooooooooooooo Fortitude Axe, hehehe

)

Okuza · Post by **Okuza** » Fri Sep 29, 2006 9:05 pm

SAM was already on my list for needed SJs, but it will be after DRK and a lot of others for me. I'ts one of those "melee breadth requirement" jobs.

IMHO, I think this change is targeted entirely at WAR. All the other jobs that use a 2H weapon use one pretty much exclusively already. It will be a boost to them, but not a big change. War sometimes uses 2H, but mostly doesn't. G.Axe is their A+ weapon. This change might tempt some Wars to use 2H more than 1H and forgo sub/nin.

I don't think it tempt more than a few, though. War/nin gets FAR too much utility from being able to blink tank. More dps without ability to tank isn't useful. That's why MNK in merit go MNK/nin.

I wish NIN had a higher G.Kat skill -- like say B+. That would be fun to play around as a nin/sam using G.Kat.

Post by **Yukira** » Fri Sep 29, 2006 10:07 pm

Yessss! Sounds good!

Post by **Sugami** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 12:01 am

The return of DRG/SAM methinks (those doing it atm are stupid

) should also work a treat for DRK too. Bet WARs will still /NIN with dual axes, of course the odd few will experiment but most are retarded sheep

Post by **Alya Mizar (Tsybil)** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 5:15 am

My melee kitty is just thrilled, SAM main.

Post by **Karou Ariyen** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 6:38 am

im sam/war

Eviticus · Post by **Eviticus** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 9:24 am

Hmmm....think, think, think....What are the combat uses for War and Sam subs?

War sub: Provoke when main is at 10, Berserk at 30, Double Attack at 50, and Warcry at 70.

Versus

Sam sub: Store TP I at 20, Third Eye at 30, Zanshin at 40(They are moving it down to Sam20), Hasso at 50, and Meditate and Store TP II at 60.\

Now, Sam -look- to be a better sub. And quite frankly, that Zanshin, Meditate, and Hasso are looking tasty. But Hasso is a 1 minute ability with 5 minute recast, ouch. Where as something like Double Attack, which procs more often then Zanshin might I add, is active 100% of the time. DA and Berserk, which lasts longer then Hasso, are just too tasty to give up....

Edit: *Slaps face.* My bad, misread. 5 minute duration, one minute recast. Hmm, depending on how much of a boost it gives, this may just have revived Sam as a sub for Drk and Drg. G.Axe War too maybe.

Okuza · Post by **Okuza** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 9:30 am

Eviticus wrote:Hasso is a 1 minute ability with 5 minute recast

You might be correct, but the text in the link shows it as a 5 minute ability with a 1 minute recast. They go on to say that Hasso and Seigan are mutually exclusive. Each one cancels the other.

If the web page is indeed correct and it's not an error, I think they're trying to give sub/sam "stances" or "modes" -- either attack mode or tanking mode.

Eviticus · Post by **Eviticus** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 9:38 am

Yup, you're right, I edited my post. 5 min duration, 1 min recast. And to heck with Seigan, HASSO ONRY.

Okuza · Post by **Okuza** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 11:20 am

You could still be right. The first thing I thought when I read SE's text was "Uh, that's gotta be wrong. No way they'd actually give a job something that didn't have a long enough recast to make the JA pointless."

Post by **Sugami** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 11:31 am

You missed that Lv.35 ability, Seigan, that increases the potency of Third Eye.

Seigan (Level 35; Recast: 1 minute; Duration: 5 minutes)
Grants a bonus to Third Eye when using two-handed weapons.

Seigan and Third Eye
While Seigan is in effect, the recast time for the Third Eye job ability will be decreased by half. In accordance, the duration for "Third Eye" will be adjusted.

Also, with the next version update, the player may counterattack or keep the effect of Third Eye when the player evades an attack using the Third Eye job ability. The chance that the player will keep the Third Eye effect even after evading will gradually decrease from the time the ability is used.

These 2 new abilities don't overlap this is why the recasts are so short. Essentially got yourself a new type of Utsusemi with Seigan + Third Eye.

So lets say we've got a NIN/WAR and a WAR/SAM mashing away at a mob; WAR has Hasso up to start with and later down the line the NIN gets in trouble. WAR uses Seigan (cancels Hasso), Third Eye then vokes. Takes the heat off the NIN for a bit without taking damage, NIN gets cured and shadows up and vokes to get hate back. WAR uses Hasso, Seigan gets cancelled and he's back to dishing the damage.

Post by **Karou Ariyen** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 5:44 pm

While it seems nice, Thier just nerfing samurai into a subjob. Anyone remember how they tried to do it to ranger? Seriously, changing Zanshin to 20 is rediculas! which means im stuck with more Job Abilities then I need, but meh. I doubt I'll switch to /sam on war. Double attack is a warrior only job trait yes, but, still, that sub isnt going to help warrior, I mean meditate is nice, but these new abilities make absolutely no sense.

Personally I perfer /nin and I'm not straying from it. If I want sam, Sam/war Tyvm.

Gabryel · Post by **Gabryel** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 7:36 pm

KarouKaniyashia wrote:Personally I perfer /nin and I'm not straying from it.

You sound like all the other sheep. Not willing to even try something different.

Post by **Karou Ariyen** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 7:44 pm

Straying? Let Me Tell you a story. I didnt lvl ninja til 40. i went War/Whm and as anyone here knows, that's darn impossible in parties. When I chose ninja i thought it was a subjob NO ONE Used. I failed to research /nin when i chose it. so i didnt join the "bandwagon" becuase i didnt know a bandwagon existed. as for sam sub, i've used it many times, I dont see much of a diffrence. heck tonight is dynamis and I'm going in as War/PUP.

ive used so many subjobs on warrior it isnt even funny.

Eviticus · Post by **Eviticus** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 8:06 pm

Actually, Sugami, I didn't list Seigan for a reason. I was comparing the relative combat usefulnesses of having /War sub versus /Sam sub. That's why I also didn't list things like Defense Bonus and Resist Virus/Blind. If I sub Sam, I may use Third Eye, but I will always choose Hasso over Seigan. As a Drg, like hell you'll see me holding hate....not now, at least, with Super Jump being on a 3 minute timer.

Okuza · Post by **Okuza** » Sun Oct 01, 2006 1:08 am

I don't think calling war/nin cookie-cutter really is all that warranted. Might as well call nin/war cookie-cutter in that case because NIN really does have NO other choices at all for sub-job. You can maybe go nin/blm as a joke if you want to spin the wheel, but that really only works at around level 40 and nowhere else.

They're war/nin usually only during XP. I see war/drk, war/sam, war/thf, war/whm, war/drg, war/etc in other 75 situations. They're already damn versatile compared to other jobs.

Some nins are playing around with nin/brd (mazurka is insane agro) and nin/drk (stun is nice agro and the atk is like war), but those are pretty much special-case, not staple anywhere.

THF is basically pure sub/nin except for a few that like thf/war. Sub/mnk works for newbies under 40, but that's it.

DRG can go sub war, sam, or whm -- maybe more for other breath options.

--

Anyway, I think a general strategy of improving the utility of all jobs as sub-jobs is a good one. It encourages folks to go level new jobs at least to 40. FFXI's strength is at the lower levels. The higher you go, the more you run into balance and focus issues (gotta be best in role or end unwanted).

Post by **Karou Ariyen** » Sun Oct 01, 2006 7:45 am

war/sam war/drk those are combintations I see for other stuff, and its not easy to do that. most war's are just poser wars. I.E. "Well i want maat's cap so i'll lvl war to 75 and to hell with real war's who get a bad name from me". don't believe me? Come to hades.

I'm a poser warrior, becuase some genious gave us a bad name. I struggle to just keep myself noticed. besides, a lot of people arnt too happy with the samurai changes, and as for the warrior changes, dang, more weapon skill access, that I'll take.

Post by **Sugami** » Sun Oct 01, 2006 9:22 am

Eviticus wrote:Actually, Sugami, I didn't list Seigan for a reason. I was comparing the relative combat usefulnesses of having /War sub versus /Sam sub. That's why I also didn't list things like Defense Bonus and Resist Virus/Blind. If I sub Sam, I may use Third Eye, but I will always choose Hasso over Seigan. As a Drg, like hell you'll see me holding hate....not now, at least, with Super Jump being on a 3 minute timer.

Seigan means you won't have to hold back as often. No jumps available? Who cares; Penta Thrust -> Seigan -> Third Eye and you're gravey, just wait for someone to pickup hate and use Hasso again.

Okuza wrote: THF is basically pure sub/nin except for a few that like thf/war. Sub/mnk works for newbies under 40, but that's it.

DRG can go sub war, sam, or whm -- maybe more for other breath options.

Actually THF would do better by /WAR. More damage and faster TP (been proven). Just that new mobs are fast so they kinda need the shadows if they're pulling.

And DRG/SAM at its current state is pretty crappy. You left out /THF for closing SCs too (lots of dumbasses sub it just 'cause it makes their WS a bit bigger while gimping their DOT horribly). /mage not for exp either.

KarouKaniyashia wrote: a lot of people arnt too happy with the samurai changes

Who?

All the elitest epeen stroking pricks who are worried other jobs will be able to catch up with them now?

Eviticus · Post by **Eviticus** » Sun Oct 01, 2006 10:44 am

I guess seeing as they last 5 min with 1 min recast, other jobs could(if they get hate) drop Hasso for a Seigan+3rd Eye. But I'll just be content with a Super Jump. And if I am amassing enough hate in 3 minutes that I have to use Super Jump again before the timer is up, something is wrong with the pt....

Post by **Sugami** » Sun Oct 01, 2006 1:13 pm

Really when you're spamming Penta Thrust you save High Jump for hate shedding aswell as Super Jump and only keep Jump for TP gain. Even still you can get through quite a lot of mobs in 3mins if the supply is there, you'll get to WS at least 3 times in that duration. Maybe that's an over-estimate but I have been waiting on High Jump or Super Jump before WSing many a time.

With Seigan I could possible use High Jump for TP gain and only Super Jump and obviously Seigan + Third Eye for hate shedding and damage mitigation.

Post by **Karou Ariyen** » Sun Oct 01, 2006 3:17 pm

I dont know Sug, maybe half the samurai on Hades who ARNT Ego strokers. All the decent samurai dont use those eepon crap things. To put it as one samurai in my Dynamis shell said "Since when did we ever have a damage problem that required fixing?" I put him in my melee pts for dynamis always, and he hasnt shown a reason for Samurai to be changed.

One of the reasons I enjoyed lvling sam, was for Zanshin, At the time a samurai only Job Trait. To me it was like a right of passage, once I got it, I knew I had made it as a samurai. Now that everyone WONT have to earn it via leveling much, it strikes me as.....odd. But that's just me.

Okuza · Post by **Okuza** » Sun Oct 01, 2006 9:37 pm

Sugami wrote:Actually THF would do better by /WAR. More damage and faster TP (been proven). Just that new mobs are fast so they kinda need the shadows if they're pulling.

That's what all the THF/war folks say, but either it's not true or it varies by player. THF/nin outparses THF/war for me by 15-20%. TP rate is hard to judge, but feels a lot faster on sub/nin. A lot of people whine about the "tp floor nerf", but I never saw my rate change as a result. The only jobs that can keep up with my TP on THF are DRG and SAM (and only when meditate is up for SAM). I actually tell the haster in parties to haste me last -- others need it more. Even when pulling agro on THF, it won't hit me. I won't need haste for the blink timer (which is why you put blink tanks first on haste, not for dps).

You do need to eat +atk food on thf/nin. If you don't have 90% accuracy or higher as thf/nin while eating meat, you won't be able to compete against a thf/war eating sushi.

BTW, the dps order I gave above was for your average pickup player. A very well geared thf or drg really does outparse an average war or nin. It's just that average gear for a nin or a war is amazingly better than average gear for a thf or drg. War in particular can do damn well on a shoestring budget and even better with god drops and lots of cash. Other jobs aren't so lucky. Why isn't THF on the job-list for haidate!?

Post by **Sugami** » Sun Oct 01, 2006 10:46 pm

SAM changes are mainly to make it a more desirable subjob, nothing against the job itself but their standard DoT is lacking.

And Zanshin? Don't make me laugh, it's the Job Trait that gets better as you get worse or visa versa. I think they dropped it to 20 to offset the loss of Double Attack slightly.

I saw some rather convincing maths showing that /WAR is indeed faster TP gaining than /NIN. THF must be the only job that can WS without worrying whether they have shadows up or Jumps ready or whatever. Bleh can't seem to find it but *shudder* KI THFs seem to think /WAR > /THF.

Post by **Karou Ariyen** » Sun Oct 01, 2006 11:58 pm

/thf is over rated. sam/thf? what good and why? berserk vs sata HMMM. BERSERK

I wont speak of drk/thf seeing as I've never played it, but sam/thf puleese. I'd do more damage with berserk up to increase attack then to play /thf for some flop tank who'd rather slack off then hold hate.

Okuza · Post by **Okuza** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 2:43 am

Sugami wrote:Bleh can't seem to find it but *shudder* KI THFs seem to think /WAR > /THF

Yeah, but KI is like an epeen proving grounds. THF/war does yield bigger snick+ws -- what you can see and SS and brag about without parsing.

Quickie "math" on the two: Sub/nin+suppanomimi = DW2+1 (15% weapon haste or ~21% dps boost) and +1 extra hit on every WS. Sub/war = double attack (10% dps & tp), bezerk, warcry, and +attack JT. TP/nin is 10% lower after the recent floor nerf (it was higher), since DW reduces TP gain by the same amount it speeds attack rate. It's less than 10% if the THF/nin is using off-hand faster than main. Anyway, 10% is just one attack round for THF/nin.

Practically speaking, you need a pretty huge difference in TP gain to matter; 'dunno about you, but there's always something going on that makes WS'ing right at 100 not as nice as waiting a tad (critter about to die, 3 others about to unleash and you can impromptu renkei, tank wants trick+ws opener, etc. etc.). So, unless both are unleashing exactly at 100, chances are pretty good they're actually WS'ing at about the same rate.

Bezerk & warcry are not always on -- long recast, short duration. If they could be always-on, thf/war would win. The traditional KI THF/war goes on and on and on about how big his snick+ws is, then mentions in very tiny print (oh, with 'zerk and 'cry). The attack gains are nice, but they don't make up for the DW gains -- at least not for my parses.

KarouKaniyashia wrote:I wont speak of drk/thf seeing as I've never played it, but sam/thf

SAM is about the only job that can get away with sub/war due to 3rd eye. The rest have to sub/nin or sub/thf to avoid sucking down MP during XP. With the sam change, they could maybe sub/sam, too. They could before, but now /sam offers improvements that are similar to sub/war in total effect.

Hmmm. Could be with the sub/sam changes they're also trying to make renkei more profitable again. Extra TP means more WS'ing. One reason no one renkei's is because stuff is 80% dead by the time everyone has 100 -- MB is a wasted on a dead critter. More sam and sub/sam means more TP at the opening, which is the only time MB makes sense at 75. Renkei is one thing I miss about the old days. Renkei groups require more teamwork and thf groups do, too. It's why I did THF to 75 and what I enjoyed most about XP'ing -- the satisfaction of a group working well together. Burn parties the only satisfaction is the nice XP. Ok, the amazingly stupendously nice XP.

Post by **Karou Ariyen** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 3:17 am

But Samurai was originally developed to be balanced with /war. The /thf thing came because ppl insisted that /thf SATA is the only way to play. At least as far as I know.

Post by **Alya Mizar (Tsybil)** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 4:36 am

How I rate the SAM subs.

/WAR, most overall damage, good TP gain.

/RNG, fastest TP gain, good damage. Sharpshot is a grrreat TP builder.

/THF, real handy for getting around town.

After a party as /RNG with my melee kitty, I notice how much more I miss as /WAR. The frustrating thing about /RNG is the lack of people who can do two different SCs in one party. If I can I will set up SCs with all the other melees and the tank. I expect the others to have SCs for when I have no TP, but they don't. 200% TP and no one else is ready, finally I do a SC, Meditate, do another, and there are now two other people with TP and nothing set up.

/sigh

According to the best THF I know, about the late 50s /NIN is superior. For pulling Raptors it is essental.

/SAM will be a fad for a while. After that... IDK.

Post by **Sugami** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 12:39 pm

Okuza wrote:Quickie "math" on the two: Sub/nin+suppanomimi = DW2+1 (15% weapon haste or ~21% dps boost) and +1 extra hit on every WS. Sub/war = double attack (10% dps & tp), bezerk, warcry, and +attack JT. TP/nin is 10% lower after the recent floor nerf (it was higher), since DW reduces TP gain by the same amount it speeds attack rate. It's less than 10% if the THF/nin is using off-hand faster than main. Anyway, 10% is just one attack round for THF/nin.

Practically speaking, you need a pretty huge difference in TP gain to matter; 'dunno about you, but there's always something going on that makes WS'ing right at 100 not as nice as waiting a tad (critter about to die, 3 others about to unleash and you can impromptu renkei, tank wants trick+ws opener, etc. etc.). So, unless both are unleashing exactly at 100, chances are pretty good they're actually WS'ing at about the same rate.

Well if you're putting TP gain as vitually identical /WAR still has better stats over /NIN, harder hits and Berserk I believe 3min duration, 5 min recast so 60% of the time it's up. Warcry Attack boost is small in comparison and is only really good for quick hate.

DRG should always go /WAR to TP burns and to most normal exp parties. High Jump and Super Jump shed enough hate after WS.

The thing about SAM is Gekko or Kasha can be anywhere from 300-800 without SA and 800-1300 with. That's practically double the damage, the other thing is that out of all the 2-handed users their standard damage is the weakest. Playing to their strengths would be to make better use of their WSs.
However in burn parties where there aren't enough melees who can tank to some extent you won't be able to get SATA off and without TA you'll probably get yourself killed, ontop of which hate is constantly being pinged around making it harder to land SATA properly.

Think the initial attraction to /RNG was Sidewinder spam but after the nerf you're hard pressed to land them consistantly. Heck my WAR (now 40) has C skill in Marksmanship and 2 merits and my accuracy is something like 25%.

Post by **Alya Mizar (Tsybil)** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 4:13 pm

The attraction of /RNG for me is the Acc boost and the TP gain under Sharpshot. With the distance modifier now removed while Sharpshot is active, the point blank shoot-shoot-swing gets you to 100% TP in no more than three cycles.

Sidewinder spamage is still possible, but it takes a Soboro now. And that takes getting past Promyvion Holla, something the melee kitty has yet to do.

I swear the Holla boss has the best AI in the game.