MithraPride

Yay for random topics. This one is somewhat aimmed at people who play, or have played, dungeons and dragons, but input from everyone helps a ton.

I play Dungeons and Dragons every sunday. Currently, I am playing a Lawful Good Paladin/Vassal of Bahamut (HAIL TO THE WYRMKING!). As of tonight, I have been informed that I do not play my character as if I am lawful good. I am told I play as a "Neutral Good" person.

It is my oppinion that Lawful Good is a person who does good things following their own personal moral code that is created from personal ideals or the ideals of a higher power (such as a Lord, Diety, Etc).

It turns out that this ideal is fairly common, however...

Many people believe that a Lawful Good person is a person who stands for all things good, opposes and destroys evil, and seeks a method to preserve, establish, and unify order and peace within the world.

If you ask me, that defination is somewhat... well.... fanatical.

So, lemme ask the population of kittens (and the resident Taru who I claim ownership of *snuggles Kopopo*) what you think...

What do you believe is Lawful Good? (And please, try not to bicker too much between yourselves =p I see that a LOT on threads about this sort of stuff)

What's it say in the Player's Manual?

A Lawful Good character upholds the law while doing good, a Neutral Good character can cut corners (law wise) so long as it is for the greater good.

Lawful Good characters in most cases wouldn't be able to decieve or lie. While a Neutral Good or Chaotic Good person could do so long as it was for the greater good.

Lawful = Obeys the Law
Neutral = Sometimes obeys the law or sometimes cuts corners.
Chaotic = Believes that law chains and restricts people and follows their own moral compass of good regarding the laws already in place.

Yep, Sakino's got it pretty much right on the nose. Lawful characters cannot disobey the law, or they risk an alignment shift, and in the case of a Paladin class, this is especially dangerous, as an alignment shift can cause you to revert to being a normal fighter, without the fighter's gained abilities up to your level. You lose your Paladin abilities for "falling from the path" so to speak. At least if I'm remembering the rules for playing Paladins right, been a good while. ^^;;

Once upon a time, in a set of three white books far, far away....

There was only one alignment, Lawful - Neutral - Chaotic. This was based on religon, but people played Lawful like it was a mental disorder.

Many D&D groups started expermenting with a second alignment set, Good - Neutral - Evil. I personally ran the first Lawful Evil cleric seen in our group. Shortly after Gygax and company formalized this set.

Lawful Good is still played like it was a mental disorder. I think this appropriaite, and Paladins are the most rigid of all in this group. The Paladin's biggest delima, there is a fair maden being held by a dragon, well beyond a "Keep off the grass" sign....

My viewpoint:

A Lawful character has a rigid set of codes that he must live up to or risk excommunication and/or alignment shift. Our patrical, or Abramhamic if you prefer, religons are all Lawful. There is little room for a personal moral code (or immoral code for the lawful evil types I guess).

Lawful good - Vampire Hunter D, Jimminy Cricket, Disney Fairy Godmothers.

Lawful Neutral - most of us.

Lawful Evil - Jimmy Swagart, most Disney Villains, at least one teacher you have had and you know just who it is.

Neutral has a personal moral code, and it is flexable. Neutral religons tend to be based in nature or spirits. Most polythestic religons are neutral. Shinto is a neutral religon.

Neutral Good - always makes me think of tree huggers. Cities that spend more money on animal shelters than on those for the homless or battered women are Neutral Good.

Neutral Neutral - Or "True Neutral". The Jains and other religons that hold all life as sacred, including insect and bacteria, are Neutral. In D&D all Druids go here. A True Neutral would not care about the grass in the Paladin delima, noticing that grass recovers from being walked on. He would weigh the balance of the Maden's continued existence against the Dragon's hunger, and realize that inteligent humaniods are lower on the food chain than dragons. Tatum O'Niel's role in "Paper Moon", Fat Sam in "Bugsy Malone".

Neutral Evil - The clasic "Out for myself and you had better not be in my way" sort. If you haven't had one boss, surpervisor, or co-worker that was Neutral Evil you are still in High School. Ryan O'Niel's role in "Paper Moon", the end movie Phantom in "Phantom of the Paradise"

Chaos is mostly an inverse of Law. I don't think there have been many Chaotic religons. Religons, by nature, are formulated around laws and rules. Law vs. Chaos is a theme. Think "The Road Warrior".

Chaotic Good - The internal moral compass in the only one these types have and it has no strong field to align it. Those cops who break laws to enforce others and engage in "testilying" are Chaotic Good. I think Cowboy Bebop is Chaotic Good.

Chaotic Neutral - A Hurricane is Chaotic Neutral. A true Chaotic neutral person spreads chaos because it is fun. Loki & Coyote spring right to mind as great examples. Jackson Pollock's art is Chaotic Neutral.

Chaotic Evil - Seeks destruction as a deliberate force for randomization or simply for its own sake. A true agent of entropy, the Chaotic Evil would reduce everything to its component atoms, preferably sprinkled lightly, but randomly, with blood. It is very hard to think of an example from history, fiction or mytholigy that fits this.

A lot of good input here, but I still find a lot of this hard to accept as a defination of Lawful Good. My reasoning may seem a little broken, but it raisea a good argument and attempts to more accurately define the alignment itself.

Anyone can be lawful. All you have to do is follow your own personal moral code which is usually a combination of personal morals and the ideals of a higher power, such as a lord or diety. Monks, traditionally Lawful Neutral, heavily reflect this ideal more so than any other class, because they allow their personal morals to shine through.

A Paladin, confined to Lawful Good, Can also use this defination and retain his alignment, provided that everything, or at least 95% of everything he does is good, or has good intentions. This alone secures him a place in good, and the above reasoning locks him into a place as Lawful Good.

1. He does good things most of the time, occationing cutting corners to achieve the best good outcome in a situation (I.E Personal Sacrifice, which is frowned down upon by such dieties like Saint Cuthburt and Pelor. Both of these dieties believe that the ultimate good can be obtained without tossing something of personal value aside).

2. He follows his strict personal moral codes, which is a perfect combination of his own and that of his diety (or in my case, Bahamut).

3. You act inside the will of your diety MOST (More than 80%) of the time.

In the eyes of your diety, you retain your alignment since you are functioning as you should be. However, in the eyes of a DM, you act more Neutral Good than Lawful Good.

Many people have many ideas on what lawful good is. However, most of them agree that a strong (and often annoying) sense of justice is NOT a characteristic of someone who is Lawful Good. In a way, all alignments have their own strong sense of justice, which makes the premeditated belief on what Lawful Good is nearly completely Null

"A lawful good character acts as a good person is expected or required to act. They combine a commitment to oppose evil with the discipline to fight relentlessly. They tell the truth, keep their word, help those in need, and speak out against injustice. A lawful good character hates to see the guilty go unpunished. Some feel that lawful good is the best alignment one can be because it combines honor and compassion."

That is the current belief on what lawful good is. There is also a table of unique characteristics as well.

1. Always keeps his word.
2. Never lies.
3. Never attacks, harms or kills an innocent foe.
4. Never harms an innocent.
5. Never tortures for any reason. Will not allow torture.
6. Always helps others.
7. Always work within the law.
8. Respects honor, self-discipline, authority and law.
9. Works well within a group.
10. Never takes 'dirty money' or items.
11. Never betray a friend. Ever. For ANY reason.

Now, in the case of my Paladin/Vassal of Bahamut... I keep all my promises, I never lie, I never harm innocent or defenseless enemies or innocents, I never torture or interrogate, I ALWAYS help people. I always work within Bahamut's Law (Not necessarily the current laws, but 95% of the time, I do.), I respect honor and self discipline, the authorities, and the law (to an extent, unless it's Bahamut's Law). I Function as a member of a group, not an individual. I never take any black items (Stolen, murdered for, etc), and I have never and shall never betray my friends.

I currently reside in a party with 3 evil characters. Normally, this would make EVERYONE question my intent and/or my alignment. However, Bahamut believes that without Evil, Good cannot exist. In short, just because someone is evil doesn't make them "Dark". Bahamut doesn't see the world in Good and Evil like people do. Instead, he views them as Light and Dark. Most evil people still have bits of Light in them, and Bahamut asks that his followers try to redeam the darkness and return the light to their being.

My character has spent a month with the 3 evil people (2 Lawful Evil, and 1 Neutral Evil) as they travel together. So far, he has only seen that the Neutral Evil character is nearly beyond redemption. He believes the other two can be saved. However, despite this idea, he still treats them like normal people, even after confronting them and telling them "I know you are evil". They do not fear him, because he is not imposing his ideals upon them. That is Bahamut's Law.

So, I feel I've strayed heavily from the original topic here, so after reading this, do you feel that I am behaving in a Lawful Good manner? Or do I need to developed an annoying and false sense of justice that most people associate with Paladins...

Player's Handbook defines Lawful Good as:

Characters of this alignment believe that an orderly, strong society, with a well-organized government can work to make life better for the majority of the people. To ensure the quality of life, laws must be created and obeyed. When people respect the laws and try to help one another, society as a whole prospers. Therefore, lawful good characters strive for those things that will bring the greatest benefit to the most people and cause the least harm. Lawful Good characters always keep their word.

Player's Handbook defines Neutral Good as:

These characters believe that balance of forces is important, but that the concerns for law and chaos don't moderate the need for good. Since the universe is vast and contains many creatures striving for different goals, a determined pursuit of good will not upset the balance; it may even maintain it. If fostering good means supporting organized society, then that is what must be done. If good can only come about through the overthrow of an existing social order, so be it. Social structure itself has no innate value to them. A baron who violates the orders of the king to destroy something he sees as evil is an example of a neutral good character. (Also a neutral good character will sometimes lie/deceive so that the greater good can be acomplished.)

In a way, I'd have to say that a Lawful Good character follows the existing laws to do greater good but doesn't violate those laws to do so. Think of the justice system for an example. If evidence was not correctly gathered with a warrent, the guilty person fingered with the evidence would have to be set free. A lawful good character would accept that. There only recourse would be to find some sort of loophole in the law.

If that same scenerio was in place for a neutral good or chaotic good character, they would have some "backyard" justice with the guilty person as soon as they left the courthouse ala wild west style.

Also remember that a lawful good character would accept the current laws in an evil society as well. If a law there stated that the penalty for loitering was death then that lawful good would accept that or like above, try to find a loop hole in it.

That being said, Lawful Good is the 2nd most difficult alignment to RP. Number one would be True Neutral IMHO.

Touche, Sakino...

I've heard it said that Lawful Good should not mean Lawful Stupid. Hopefully that paladin would do his knightly duty and save the maiden from death, and then go turn himself in to the City Watch for aggravated walking-on-the-grass later.

--

Lawfull good, sounds like an unreasonable term. Following the laws and being good at the same time. Is it possible to follow an unjust law and be good at the same time? I think the others here have summed it all up, I just wanted to put in my $0.02 about the term "Lawfull Good".

Try reading up on Alignments in the Player's Handbook, if clearly states how a character of what alignment should be played like and describes each alignment in detail also the penalties of not playing your alignment like your supposed to, in your case, if your a Paladin and not playing as a Lawful Good character, you may fall from your Paladin status...

I always played Chaotic Neutral in the sense of "I dont care what, when, where, why, nor how i do things. i just do them"

sorta like backstabbing a homeless guy to steal his moldy ham sammich then giving it to some kid down the street because it had no mayonaise only to keep on walking and steal a lollypop from another kid because it looked like it was strawberry flavored.

Apathy was my ultimate weapon... and insanity... ya.. i also had a few characters that shoulda been in teh loony bin...

In response to this, you are correct in that a Paladin can only be Lawful Good (LG). Any alignment shift could cause your noble Paladin to become what is called a "Fallen Paladin" which means that they lose some Paladin abilities, which is up to your DM to decide. Also, it may mean that for your character to obtain "Paladin" status again, you'd have to please Bahamut or whichever Deity your Paladin is with. Again, this is totally up to your DM.

Yup, Sakino summarized it purrfectly.

Btw, my favorite alignment is chaotic/good. I like to think that I'm like that myself.

D&D rocks.

Yukira wrote:Yup, Sakino summarized it purrfectly.

Btw, my favorite alignment is chaotic/good. I like to think that I'm like that myself.

D&D rocks.

An interesting thing though; play Planescape Torment (for the PC) and RP the character like your RL counterpart. It can be sort of an odd litmus test for your RL alignment

That being said, I tend to fall into the Neutral Good alignment when I play based on my character's actions in game.

Biancca wrote:Lawfull good, sounds like an unreasonable term. Following the laws and being good at the same time. Is it possible to follow an unjust law and be good at the same time? I think the others here have summed it all up, I just wanted to put in my $0.02 about the term "Lawfull Good".

I know it's been a little while since that's been posted but nobody really explained it so I'll give it a shot

Like my dad explained to me, Lawful Evil would be like the devil. He's obviously evil, but he does follow the rules and stays to any contracts or whatever me makes. So technically he's still lawful. And correct me if I'm wrong, but I havent seen any law against taking somebody's soul

And for following unjust laws, well...I'm sure you could make a nice debate over it. Like if a king is corrupt and is spreading a bunch of laws that make everyone miserable and say, kills everyone who cant pay a rediculously high tax rate. I know a chaotic good might come in there (think Robin Hood) but as to what a Lawful Good person would do, I'm sure he would have some inner conflics because it's hurting people but it's also the law. You could make a good argument about it.

Lawful Evil leaders make unjust laws.

Lawful good people MUST follow them. They do not have to feel good about it though.

If a good person fights against unjust laws, as Aony says, he is Chaotic Good.

Example; there are many people in law enforcement and the criminal justice system who do not agree with our Marajuana laws. They enforce them nonetheless.

Sakino wrote:An interesting thing though; play Planescape Torment (for the PC) and RP the character like your RL counterpart. It can be sort of an odd litmus test for your RL alignment

That being said, I tend to fall into the Neutral Good alignment when I play based on my character's actions in game.

Actually the alignment system kind of sucks in Planescape: Torment in my opinion, although the game is otherwise THE best of Bioware so far. So I wouldn't hold it as any kind of measurement of player's alignment. As a way of slight guidance at the most...NG is what I get most of the time too.

Finished the game again just few days ago....it was very exciting experiencing the immersive story again.

I know I am kinda late to this thread, but I remember such a debate as this when I was playing. The answer worked out to be DM=God. If your in his/her world, you follow his/her interpretation. My DM was chaotic/evil, you died because it was fun, you disagreed, you looked at his g/f, etc. What I've read here is alot more enlightened then what I heard back then. Enough said.

Lawful Good also depends on the laws and such of the paladin's diety...

like a Paladin of Cyric.... >.>

but in the end, yes. it is GM's choice what it means.

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