Rumors

Pheonixhawk · Post by **Pheonixhawk** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 12:15 am

Okay So my char Agentblack finnaly hits lvl 30 (cheer) and i asked around about where lvl at lvl 30 (ive been playing this game for 9 months and never past lvl 30 so dont make fun of me

). Upon giving me mulitple locations someone told me that if i was gonna take Rdm all the way I needed to have Ninja lvled for soloing, Smn for some reason and whm for parties. Is that true? All I wanted to do was go RDM/BLM

Sadira · Post by **Sadira** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 12:33 am

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Who the hell told you that? First, as a RDM once you get leveled enough to have all your buffs (ie. Blink, Stoneskin, Phalanx, Refresh, yada yada) you'll be built like a tank. /NIN won't help your RDM soloing until 74+ and even then its more for showboating and when you go to solo something that can crush you if you're not careful or if your HNMLS wants you to tank, but they might want /WAR too. Aside from that, /NIN has a use for RDM/NIN kiting in BCNM and CoP mission.

/SMN... imho, not as useful as some people think. All you're going to get out of it are a few Avatar buffs, a little extra mp, and a 1 mp per tick Auto-Refresh. As a RDM, that Auto-Refresh isn't worth not subbing /WHM or /BLM. As far as the Avatar buffs, invite a real SMN or let the WHM go /SMN and he can do it.

/WHM and /BLM, you should keep both leveled up to use as your subs. Personally I like /BLM too. Elemental debuffs, MP conserve, ES+Sleep/ga, Drain/Aspir, and lets not forget Chainspell+Escape for when the sh*t hits the fan. Plus, Warp is always useful.

And of course with /WHM you get Divine Seal and Paralyna, Poisona, Blindna, and all those other -na spells for remove status effects. You also get the Protectra, Shellra, and Barspellra goodies. At 72 RDM/WHM you get the 3 basic Teleport spells. At 64 RDM/WHM you get access to Erase and at this point can practically completely fill in for a WHM if your party wants you to. Of course you can always main heal before that, and you'll have to sometimes, but Erase just kind of completes the picture. I would say before Erase, /WHM is for main healing. But after Erase, /WHM is a multi-functioning sub for all around uses inside and outside of a party just like /BLM is.

Just keep /BLM and /WHM leveled like I said so you can use whichever sub will benefit your pt the most. These 2 subs I would like to think are the main party subs for RDM. /DRK can work for partying later on too. /NIN, /WAR, /SMN, /ANYTHING...they have their uses at specific times.

Pheonixhawk · Post by **Pheonixhawk** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 12:59 am

Thanks so much. Ill get started on lvling up WHM today (i need to kill stuff in windurst for fame to get my RSE anyway)

Undine · Post by **Undine** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 1:13 am

I'm usaly go as rdm/blm or rdm/smn and i do a great job

ScarlettPheonix · Post by **ScarlettPheonix** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 2:57 am

BLM and WHM are definetly the most useful of any sub-job for Red Mage.
SMN, BRD, NIN, DRK, WAR, THF, <insert job here> are more situational sub jobs. Good to have levelled and know how to make the most of them, but not really needed for normal exp party play.

I personally prefer BLM in the higher lvls (60+), ES help land enfeebles that you need to stick, any aspirable mob helps extend my convert timer out that much longer, the elemental enfeebles are handy and help cap your elemental skill if you don't have the time/mp to nuke/mb. Conserve MP is really nice too^^

WHM sub with all their benefits is great, especially in the lower lvls when we're mainly asked to heal.

/SMN... imho, not as useful as some people think. All you're going to get out of it are a few Avatar buffs, a little extra mp, and a 1 mp per tick Auto-Refresh. As a RDM, that Auto-Refresh isn't worth not subbing /WHM or /BLM. As far as the Avatar buffs, invite a real SMN or let the WHM go /SMN and he can do it.

Not quite, its not as bad as say subbing PLD would be. /SMN gives a high boost to both MND and INT compared to either BLM or WHM alone. BLM boosts INT while WHM only boosts MND and at 75 the difference is very very small. The extra mp helps increase our mp pool and helps with the Convert ratio which in the mid levels is a very good thing.

The buffs, yea not very useful considering the cost in time and mp it takes to bring them out. Carby pulling is very handy if the puller is afraid of links and with the light staff and refresh at 51, he's free after the casting cost^^

Auto-Refresh is actually better then the Conserve MP trait at saving/returning MP over time. In ten minutes, Auto-Refresh returns 200 mp whether you're casting, resting, slept, petrified or watching the flowers grow. Conserve MP on the other hand has been tested to save 7% of mp used over time. Without Aspir working in combination with Conserve MP, Auto-Refresh wins out. I can provide links if anyone wants to see the tests that were done, or you can just check out the RDM FAQ on Alla where the tests are explained and the math spelled out.

Basically, if you want to sub smn and there's a blm and someone else with whm subbed (at least) already in the party and you're not fighting aspirable mobs there's no real reason why you can't sub smn if you want.

For soloing I generally sub blm as well, I just love Chainspell+Escape or Chainspell+Warp lol. Right now I'm working on breaking my dagger of trails latent and I'm using smn as a sub for some lvl 2 self skillchain goodness.

Definetly start with either subbing blm or whm and then just level the others as you go. Its a good break from the exp grind in the higher levels too^^

Sadira · Post by **Sadira** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 6:12 am

The extra mp helps increase our mp pool and helps with the Convert ratio which in the mid levels is a very good thing.

That's really kind of a minor point though since any RDM should have extra +MP stuff to macro in for Convert. But I do have to agree about being able to use the extra MP from /SMN in the mid-levels. Particularly in the 40's when you first get Convert and Refresh since you don't always have the MP you need to take care of all your new tasks at this level. But you can still get by with /WHM and /BLM, you just have to rest more often. Dark Staff at 51 is a Godsend.

Post by **Sugami** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 10:38 am

Really you only need BLM for sub, NIN and WAR if you plan on soloing but you never need to so what's the point?
Apparently you'll be asked to sub WHM for MNK and WAR parties although should have someone else there that is /WHM so doesn't matter so much.

The way I see it, in terms of most useful to less useful for subs are:
BLM -> WHM -> SMN -> NIN -> WAR -> rest

BLM has slightly more MP than WHM, INT boost will make it easier to land black magic based enfeebles (Blind, Gravity) and adds more of a kick to your nukes. Also get Conserve MP and Magic Attack Bonus along with a few nice spells Warp, Drain and Aspir.

WHM is still perfectly acceptable for party play but I think BLM holds more weight. The na spells are useful but in party the healer should be able to do them. Also Divine Seal + Curaga is great, whatever you do do NOT do Divine Seal + Cure IV after Convert, you'll get huge hate and probably die before the spell gets cast (I've seen it happen

). Also the MND boost for more potent curse and light magic based enfeebles (Slow, Paralyze).

SMN I think holds less weight over BLM and WHM for subs. Yes you get more MP but that's about it, BLM makes up for it with Conserve MP anyways (and Aspir on certain mobs). Can pull out Carby if there's a chance of linking from a pull and get high enough can give everyone Blink but there ends the advantages.

NIN yes great for soloing and Ballista, once you hit 74 you can solo avatar primes and a few of the weaker HNM.

WAR good for soloing better for farming since it gives you Vorpal Blade which is very nice

DRK just for Sky and Dynamis I guess, Chainspell Stun at 74+ but you better hope they kill it quick 'cause you'll have huge hate afterwards

There you go, Su's breakdown of RDM subjobs (from a RDM72

)

Post by **Alya Mizar (Tsybil)** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 2:12 pm

Personally I have both WHM and BLM leveled, But I hardly ever use /WHM. There is always some WHM or /WHM in the party, so it isn't needed much. However, consider Convert - Divine Seal - Cure IV. Many people go RDM/WHM all the way.

I keep saying I should level NIN and THF, but I never do, mostly because I have absoloutly no desire to level WAR. Someday I will actually learn the SMN job, then I will level it.

Of all the odd RDM subjobs you hear of, the one most used in parties is /DRK, level 74+ against gods only. /BRD is popular for Manaburn parties, and a good manaburn static is worth leveling that for. /NIN is for soloing, many use it in the 50s and up. Shadows with no MPs, but a longer casting time.... still Haste, Aquaveil, Utsme just seem to go together. /WAR hmmm... I have always thought a RDM/WAR would be a good tank, but never wanted to try it.

On the /SMN, far too many who start parties are dead set against it no mater how useful it may be. People have worked just how many MPs/min it takes for /BLM or /SMN to provide more extra MPs. Never looked it up personally. Just remember that when fighting in a dungeon, Chainscape is one of the reasons you are there. No /BLM, no Chainscape.

Undine · Post by **Undine** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 3:48 pm

I usaly say i don't have whm lvled when someoneaskes me if i do. They are like oh well I guess the other rdm has to main heal then

ScarlettPheonix · Post by **ScarlettPheonix** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 4:07 pm

Yes you get more MP but that's about it, BLM makes up for it with Conserve MP anyways (and Aspir on certain mobs

I agree with almost everything you said but this is a bit inaccurate. Unless you're fighting mobs to aspir (Crabs, Beetles, Mage Beastmen, big birds, etc) Conserve MP isn't as effective as Auto-Refresh.

From RDM FAQs on Alla

Here's the math I've referred to if you don't want to scroll down the FAQ:

Q: Which job trait is better: Conserve MP from /BLM, or Auto-Refresh from /SMN?

A: The answer to this question is "it depends". Let's look at the facts about both job traits, so that you can make an informed decision:

Auto-Refresh

Restores 1MP every 3 seconds, or 200MP in a 10-minute Convert window.

Conserve MP

Activates roughly 25% of the time
Upon activation it will reduce the cost of the spell by a specific fraction: 1/16, 2/16... up to 8/16ths of the total cost.
The final cost is truncated (or the savings is rounded up, same difference).
On average, this reduces the cost of spells by about 28.1% when it fires.
Taking the activation rate into consideration, this translates into slightly more than 7% MP savings over time.

Since you are getting 200MP every Convert cycle with Auto-Refresh, and Conserve MP saves 7% MP over time, you will need to spend (200 / .07) --> ~2857MP in order to break even with Conserve MP. Refresh will give you 600MP in a 10 minute window, leaving you with a staggering 2257MP to make up by other means. Merited, god-gear-wearing level 75 RDMs can generally hit perfect Converts around the 1000MP mark, leaving you with 1257MP to make up. With double Ballad, you can squeeze out another 600MP, leaving 657MP to regain through resting. With moderate hMP gear and cookies you'll get about 35MP per initial tick, requiring almost 5 minutes worth of initial resting ticks in a 10 minute window.

So, as you can see, it's nearly impossible for Conserve MP to even match Auto-Refresh for MP over time. To summarize: Auto-Refresh is superior (for MP recovery purposes) in most long, drawn-out situations, such as long fights against HNMs, general marathon XPing, etc. Conserve MP is superior when you are spending a great deal of MP in such a short period of time that Auto-Refresh can't catch up (for example, Chainspell + nuking).

Two things to note: first, the fact that Auto-Refresh is usually better MP over time than Conserve MP does not mean that /SMN is usually better than /BLM as a subjob (I have not touched the impact of Aspir, for instance). Also, the same math applies to RDM/BRDs who use Ballad subbed, it gives 200MP every 10 minutes as long as you can keep it on constantly.

I'm not saying SMN is the be all end all of subjobs, its not. Its just not as bad as alot of people make it out to be. I've used WHM, BLM and SMN as subs during exp as I levelled. WHM for the early lvls, SMN until 60 and BLM during the long haul to 75. Of all 3, I get the most use out of BLM and its the one I prefer to sub now.

And oh my gods yes, Dark Staff is a godsend. Add the Errant Hpl and Heirarch Belt in after 70 and I'm a happy happy red mage kitty.^^

Post by **Shirai** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 4:28 pm

The answer to most (if not all) Red mage sub job questions.

http://killingifrit.com/forums.php?m=posts&q=6559

ScarlettPheonix · Post by **ScarlettPheonix** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 4:47 pm

Great link Shirai, thank you!

It really brakes down the advantages vs disadvantages on most of the subs without leaning too heavily on one side or the other (for/against mageline vs melee rdms).

MittensValefor · Post by **MittensValefor** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 4:58 pm

In my experience, most party red mages were /whm... Why? Convert > Divine Seal > Cure 4. Not worth losing Elemental Seal for sleeping adds or losing warp IMO, but there are some cases where /whm is real handy... Silena for Anticans in Quicksand Caves when your SMN doesn't understand he should stay away from them and your NIN is getting clobbered because she ran out of echo drops for example.

My advice to ANY mage: Take WHM to 42 and get all the teleports ASAP. You'll thank yourself in the long run.

My advice to ANY player: Take THF to 25 for flee. You'll love it!

My story? I started as RDM, got 42 and refresh, heard RDM Maat was impossible, chickened out and took BLM to 75 before touching RDM again. Now i'm 53 RDM and I'm loving it!!!

Gimped RDM subs: 22 SMN (Never ever used it), 33 NIN (haven't tried this for solo yet... I prefer /BLM for shock and warp.)

Ungimped subs: 43 WHM (only ever used in party once), 75 BLM... 'nough said.

Keavy · Post by **Keavy** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 5:39 pm

I don't know if she still plays, but Finwich on Phoenix server is a friend of mine and one helluva RDM. She's taken RDM to 75 and into HNM/Dynamis so if you can get ahold of her she'd be a great resource.

I have a quick question: I need to solo 4K exp. on my level 40 RDM. Any advice?

Post by **Alya Mizar (Tsybil)** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 8:42 pm

Keavy wrote: I have a quick question: I need to solo 4K exp. on my level 40 RDM. Any advice?

Go somewhere where the mobs are EP to DC and have at it. If you have an NPC, bring him/her allong.

Perhaps Sahagin in Yuhtunga Jungle or Spiders in the Eastern Desert.

ScarlettPheonix wrote:I'm not saying SMN is the be all end all of subjobs, its not. Its just not as bad as alot of people make it out to be.

No, as a matter of fact it is WAY better than most people think. More MND, more INT, More MPs, Autorefresh, and Blood Pact Buffs are all far better than merely useful. In many zones Spring Water alone is worth it. But still far too many think that RDM/SMN is gimp. /sigh

xaresity · Post by **xaresity** » Sat Mar 16, 2024 1:41 am

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xaresity · Post by **xaresity** » Sat Apr 06, 2024 7:34 am

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