Yi-Shan-Guan

Eviticus · Post by **Eviticus** » Mon Jan 09, 2006 11:37 am

New from The Daedalus Project, we have a 16(small) page report on Chinese Gold/Gil/Whatever farmers. Yi-Shan-Guan, which translated means Chinese Laundry Shop.

Also, 'Confessions of a Chinese Gil Farmer' from the Alla boards, also a good read.

After reading this...I thought to myself. Yes, it's a harsh world out there. We may see the high level Thf or Drg, or whatever camping that NM. The endgame Pld who flashed the NM so a monk could kill it. They seem cold when they ignore your every plea or /tell. Some get angry, call GM's, or carry out their own Jihad against those we accuse of FFXI's economic problems.

But in reality, they don't often choose what they are doing. They're our age, trying to make a living. Some enjoy the game, and want to support their families so they can maybe have time to enjoy FFXI later like we do.

But I realized something. I work too. The very lowest entry job I can get as a college drop out is more then they can hope for, sure. They work harder then I do for less pay and material comforts, maybe. But what can you do? You may feel sorry for them, but you can't change the nature of the world.

In the end, they are fucking with my game that I am working to enjoy as well. It may be cold or heartless to ignore their plight, but should my day be any less bright because there are people out there less fortunate then I? I was a boyscout the majority of my life. Through the BSA, my church, and my family, my entire upbringing was volunteer work for those less fortunate then myself. I live right next to East Saint Louis. The main interstate highway drives right past crumbling houses, brightly lit strip clubs, and daily theft and murder.

The world is dark, beyond your door step. That doesn't mean you have to let wrong-doings go unpunished. I see no difference between the gilfarmer and the crack dealer, both trying to make a living doing things I despise. I feel sorry for the lot in life both were delt, but that doesn't mean I have to stand idley by while they sully the things I love.

Eviticus · Post by **Eviticus** » Mon Jan 09, 2006 11:42 am

Side note, we need to take down the gil seling sites first. That's the easiest and only way to strike at this problem I think. We need to torch IGE's headquarters in California. Who's there that can help me with this task? I'm kinda 1000+ miles away....

Kintrra · Post by **Kintrra** » Mon Jan 09, 2006 12:18 pm

I agree with your sentiments Eviticus. They're doing something to support their lives perhaps, but they're screwing with mine in the process. The crack dealer analogy brings up a good point. Yeah, he's just trying to make his money too. Too bad what he's doing is illegal and screws with your neighborhood. Same difference compared to what gilsellers do to our game. and IGE is based in Cali, eh? Should be easy to shut them down then. SE just needs to bring a lawsuit down on their asses for selling gil in a game that states in the Terms of Service that it's not allowed. Heh.

Eviticus · Post by **Eviticus** » Mon Jan 09, 2006 4:55 pm

I've looked in that. I've looked into the Terms of Service contract and into IGE's own practice. I've talked with IGE representatives even. The bad news? Tell me one thing that IGE's done that is illegal.

.......

Breaking the ToS is a breech of contract. It's not against the law. It does give SE the right to revoke your use of their product, but it's not something court worthy. IGE will claim they merely connect buyer to seller, and all contracts taken up between those two parties and the mother compay, SE in our case, is between the three of us. IGE doesn't have to ever boot up FFXI to do what they do.

Buyer gives IGE money, IGE tells farmer to give X gil to Buyer. IGE is safe from the contract, Buyer and Farmer both have broken the contract with SE, and SE never finds out unless one of those two confess. And I doubt either one will confess, because they are both guilty.

Kintrra · Post by **Kintrra** » Mon Jan 09, 2006 7:07 pm

Since when is being the middleman in an illegal transaction not illegal? And SE should EASILY be able to figure out which characters are sellers I should think. They should be able to easily track who's traded how much to who, whether they've talked about it or not, and how much money was traded for absolutely no reason. Shouldn't be that hard I shouldn't figure. Unless SE's a damned bit dumber than I'm already thinking. ~.~

Keavy · Post by **Keavy** » Mon Jan 09, 2006 9:19 pm

Basically this is how File Sharing works. All they do is connect two people who wish to make an exchange.

I agree that gilselling is bad but thank of all the people that would not play. Many players are too lazy to farm.

Please, think of the lazy people.

Eviticus · Post by **Eviticus** » Mon Jan 09, 2006 9:20 pm

But that's just the problem. To the best of my knowledge, it's not against the law, merely against contract. And as such, SE is entitled to ban said accounts(which they have done, are doing, and will continue to do) and nothing further. I could be wrong, but show me a single law that says Real Money Trading for Virtual Objects is illegal.

Also, can you just imagine the outrage if SE banned a bunch of people wrongly? Take this for example, true example. A good friend of mine loves the crafting and economy part of FFXI. As such, he's very slow to level, but is starting to make more money then I even though his highest level is 32Rdm with nothing else above 15, no advanced jobs. You can see my levels below.

We've talked about going into business with one another, creating our own crafting LS amoung us, another friend of ours, and all our mules. We all know eachother irl, and frequently play in the same room with 3 computers going.

Now, let's say I needed a spot of cash from him to buy something for a synth, then I'd give him back the money I got from the selling of said item in the AH. All someone who looked at the records would see is a large unexplained transaction, with at first it looking like I never gave him anything.

I've camped Guild houses before and read a book, occasionally checking for messages, I sat there for an hour or two just waiting.

From that outside behavior, how does my mule look any different from someone who's botting or buying gil?

Or what about a HNMLS? Someone pays a guy several million for a whatever. That whatever was traded in person, but the gil was sent through the mail at a later date. There's no way they can keep track of all the things that have gone through trade windows. I'm not even sure they keep much of a record on mail transactions.

I can say in a LS chat I buy gil, and the only way anyone would see it is if they called a GM. Then the GM will examine that chat log, and find the admission. But without notification from players, it'd be insane for GM's to moniter all chat and all trades at all times. It's like you and 10 of your buddies getting to sift through all Cellphone conversations in the continental US. That's what we have Carnivore and Echelon for.

Square Enix has a staff of GM's, not NSA supercomputers.

Keavy · Post by **Keavy** » Mon Jan 09, 2006 9:20 pm

Basically this is how File Sharing works. All they do is connect two people who wish to make an exchange.

I agree that gilselling is bad but thank of all the people that would not play. Many players are too lazy to farm.

Please, think of the lazy people.

Eviticus · Post by **Eviticus** » Mon Jan 09, 2006 9:28 pm

I once met a guy who had an Aketon and Leaping Boots, yet he had no advanced jobs yet, his highest was 31. I was instantly suspicious. I helped him unlock Drg, and he opened up a chat window to give me gil in thanks.

I was thinking to myself, no...no....I could use the money, but I enjoy helping unlock Drg. Even if he gave me 30k, I'd turn it down. I like doing......wait a second, that's 100k. Yes, he gave me 100k in thanks for killing the Dragon for Dragoon. I wanted to say no, but my wallet said yes. ^.^

But I did confront him about it. He said he bought gil to get some good things before he shipped out. Shipped out, I asked? Yes, in January, this month, he was going over to Iraq. He didn't want to waste time farming to get good items, only to have to leave before using them. Laziness, but can we condem him for it?

I say yes, even though I have no plans of giving back the 100k. ^.^ Yes. Because I think my time is just as important as his. He chose to spend his time in boot camp and in the Army, so be it. I chose to spend my time in FFXI aquireing things without the aid of gilfarmers. But yet here he is. He dropped 20-60 bucks on some website and his net worth instantly doubled mine.

If I spend a year and a half to get to where he got by spending $40, and his excuse is because he's lazy? I say to hell with lazy people, I earned this, you didn't, bugger off if you can't handle it.

Keavy · Post by **Keavy** » Mon Jan 09, 2006 11:16 pm

I was being sarcastic. I hate the RMT as much as anyone else but the people like that soldier are the problem. Like a trust fund baby he has no idea the value of money so he blows it. I, like everyone else farms for money so my purse strings are tight.

The "Inflation" is caused by these people willing to pay any price for what they want and greedy players cashing in.

Post by **Sugami** » Tue Jan 10, 2006 12:12 am

well put

I posted something about the legalities of gilselling a while back, guess people didn't remember

I asked one of my lecturers (at the time) who teaches "Computing Law" copyright and all that jazz and he said there's nothing illegal about selling gil.

Compare it to say a trading card game. People buy decks of cards and often get duplicates of certain cards. What do they do with these duplicates? Trade them or sell them to people who want them to complete their collection. They bought these cards with their own money they can do as they like with it.
What they can't do is make a game using these cards and sell that for profit, that would then be stealing someone else's intellectial property.

Hope that clears things up a little

Post by **Alya Mizar (Tsybil)** » Tue Jan 10, 2006 3:40 am

Yeah but....

Contractual obligation are enforceable by lawsuit. Both ways. I have mentioned the Specific Performance lawsuit before.

I STILL wonder if Squenix can shut down people who advertise contract breaking items or programs. I know a fair bit about law, but not this bit.

Remember, one can ALWAYS sue but winning is something else. However you don't NEED to win. Sometimes the threat of a suit is enough. It is an easy calculation cost of defending yourself vs. cost of stoping whatever you are being sued for.

Legal tip for you kitties. Ever been in the situation where you wish you could call in money, guns, and lawyers? Well you can, and surprisingly cheaply. You can hire a lawyer to write a letter, and only to write a letter. This will cost $35 - $100. The letter will begin "My client..." because while he is writing it, he IS your lawyer. Letters on a lawer's letterhead in behalf of a client are scary, even to big corporations.

Chaoskitten21 · Post by **Chaoskitten21** » Tue Jan 10, 2006 11:27 am

i'm sitting here reading and hearing bout gil sellers/buyers and why they should be banned/sued whatever.i now understand why people would want to buy gil.i'm a MithraPride sackholder on Pheonix(shout out to all you pheonix kitties XD) .anyways,my main job is a lvl 50 drk.there are several items which i need to lvl drk,valkyrie's mask was one of them.after several failed attempts to get it i was starting to get tempted to buy gil so i could afford it.but i thought to myself what would that accomplish?i wouldnt feel like i deserved the valk mask if i bought it with gil purchased from those vulture gil sellers.but awhile prrsha,leader of MP phoenix,came up to me and gaveme the mask.him and jibadda camped it together,i was beside myself.i literally sat at my computer with a look like i just saw someone turn mud into a cold house(full metal alchemist anyone lol).another item i need to lvl drk is the haubergeon body armor,which is current sittng at 12-13 gil on phoenix.the odds of me being able to afford that sometime this millenium aint very good.i would have to farm for 2-3 months straight to be able to afford it.another item i need is a life belt,currently 300-400k,which isnt too bad as far as prices in jeuno go.but i can get a group together and go hunt key mobs in fei'yin for it.anyways my point is,i now understand why people may feel the need/want to buy gil.but all that does is encourage gill sellers to camp even more,and encourages gil buyers yo jack up the prices more and more.sorry if this doesnt seem on topic,but thought i should add my two cents anyways

Jae · Post by **Jae** » Tue Jan 10, 2006 11:57 am

Wow.. very interesting story here ^^
thanks for the sharing Eviticus.
I, myself never bought a gil or sold a gil...

After reading this stories of gil seller @ allakazham..
All I could think of was... they are very poor... as in emotion feeling.

People might say gil seller fucking up the game.. prices or what not...
Could be true.. could be not... but I can assure you that it is not because of the only gil seller.

I, myself own pretty much have good of everything(in game).
I can't not say I'm rich in game... though I get whatever I want in matter of no time.(Probably except the kraken club,spped belt.. unless I sell some of my gears.. though I don't find them worth it)

Now.. what I want to prove is.. some people get around like me... and get whatever they want.. even though I don't have to buy any gil or sell gils.
I just simply dont like how people makes these(bad) statement towards... a PERSON over a game or an item.

This person(gil seller) could be you..
You just happened to living in good place. Borned in good place.
As they stated.. they dont like it much.. its too hard... dont get paid well...
I'm pretty sure this was their only option for them to make money.
Who decides right and wrong? You do... cause you(most of us) think different.
Since you lived in different world from the "gil sellers".
For you.. its wrong.. but for them.. Nothing is wrong.. because for THEM... its 1 of their job to earn money from the world they livinving in.
Yea.. its illegal... might be legal.. since SE not doing much about it.
But for them its not. Its 1 of their job.

People say its impossible to earn anything these days in FFXI...
I do admit that it is very hard.. or could be very hard.
But they are people who can afford stuff even without buying gil or not buying gil.
People simply have to blame on gil seller.

Why dont you play game like them... and see if you can get gil as much as them?
From my point of view... all I see is complain.
Does people really have to blame on a person... a person(gil sellers)? over a game just because you cant get what you want from the cyber item?
Do you find item worth that much? over a person's job.. who are not able to make living out of?
Do you wish them to die.. because they cant sell gils.. and cant afford themselves?
Is AH or Items really worries you?... I'm pretty sure you can find your enjoying time more with partying.. mission with friends.
Look around.... It only matter of time.. to get what you want.

I might be wrong.. cause I may not be in position of people who cant get what they want.
Though... I think its something we have to think about... what is more important.

Losfuin · Post by **Losfuin** » Tue Jan 10, 2006 1:11 pm

Part of me feels really bad for the gil-sellers, in their RL circumstance. Being in their situation, I'd probably jump at the chance to be paid for playing a game, as oppossed to a sweat-shop factory, or prostituting myself. Sure, I may be messing up some game, but I'm surviving.
Yeah, I do get annoyed when economies crash because of gil buyers and sellers, and I do think RMT is wrong. But, in the big scheme of things, it's small fish. The drug dealer analogy fails, because crack, heroin, ecstasy etc. can kill real people's real lives - RMT messes up a virtual economy, with much smaller consequences.
I'd be damn happy if all the gil-sellers went away; but, I'd be much happier if gil-selling wasn't someone's main source of income.

Post by **Sugami** » Tue Jan 10, 2006 2:03 pm

Jae wrote: Who decides right and wrong? You do... cause you(most of us) think different.

SE does, it's in the contract

Gilsellers are dicks, put bluntly. Not only they bone up the economy but they act like dicks towards us (the non-gilsellers). I feel no pity for these f*ckers they should go out and get a proper job

Gilselling problem is two-fold:
1. Bringing too much money into the economy and ballooning inflation.
2. Monopolyzing NMs, mines, etc. making it harder for us to earn our gilz legitimately.

Anyways SE won't do sh*t about this problem 'cause they're still getting paid. Banning several gilsellers would lose them some money too. Unless a very large part of the FFXI community got together and wrote SE a petition saying they'd all leave if something wasn't done... which won't happen

Jadus · Post by **Jadus** » Tue Jan 10, 2006 9:37 pm

Well I see the point of the arguement..when I changed servers I sold all my equips and gil to a site and got credit for it all. Then I just used my credit to buy gil, but really I wasn't "buying" it I was just sending everything i earned on one character to my new one.
I don't feel bad about it.. and considering things like Scorpion Harness are breaking the OMG multi mil barrier on Gilgamesh I'm happy I had something to work with.. I think its just people in general trying to have the best of everything thats making the real problems. I wouldn't blame anybody for tossing 20$ at a site so the can finally have enough gil for the item they always wanted, but the economy thing is definetly gotten out of hand ._.;
I feel really bad for anyone just starting, FFXI will be impossible for them to play.. lol... in truth Vana'diel needs to have a War or something to fix the economy ><

lol... FFXI: "The 2nd Crystals War" XD

Prrsha · Post by **Prrsha** » Tue Jan 10, 2006 10:44 pm

As an aside note, those whom purchace or sell gil on MP Phoenix are kicked from the LS and banned. Same thing goes for bots and the like.

Tue Jan 10, 2006 11:08 pm

Jadus wrote:.....I feel really bad for anyone just starting, FFXI will be impossible for them to play.. lol... in truth Vana'diel needs to have a War or something to fix the economy.

Actually this is a GREAT economy for a new player. All the drops are worth so much more while low level gear and spells are bought from the shops at fixed prices.

On Migard I dress so much better than I ever did on Garuda at the same levels. Only my desire for uber L 20 gear is currently slowing me down there.

Losfuin · Post by **Losfuin** » Wed Jan 11, 2006 1:42 am

I had a friend start playing the game 3 days ago. He's raking in the gil from the drops from exp mobs he's soloing in Gustaberg. It takes the same amount of time to get a stack of rabbit hides as it did a year ago; but those hides are worth much more on the AH now than before. If you're smart enough to get your start-equip from an NPC, you're gonna have more gil than seems sane. Even at lvl 29 WAR, only my desire to have HQ armor for capped events or that I will use for PLD is slowing me down.

Eviticus · Post by **Eviticus** » Wed Jan 11, 2006 5:34 am

Why dont you play game like them... and see if you can get gil as much as them?

Play the game like them? 7-10 hours a day making insect paste or arrowwood lumber, playing all day every day by the book in crafting so I can skyrocket up to the 90's and HQ for weeks on end, making 1mil gil a day? I pay 15 bucks a month to play a game. Not 15 bucks a month to work like a Chinese Laundry Shop worker.

Yes, this is a beginner's market. When I level a new job, I level 5-13 in Ghelsba. Fire Crystal stacks I send to my mule in Bastok for a very nice sum. Fire crystals have gone from 3k to 4-7k since I've started. Inflation which does help buy the equipment for the lower levels.

But higher end equipment isn't sold by merchents in town, it's crafted and put on the Jeuno AH. Higher end gear faces the same inflation.

Ok, I wouldn't have as much as a problem with the economy if it wasn't for the following.

I had my eye set on Valkrie Mask for Drg. Mostly because of the higher atk, higher def, and MP I can use for when I do solo/escort friends/missions. That 10 mp turns into 300-360 hp when I use healing breath.

Anyways, it was 450k. Then the inflation hit just as I started to farm. For weeks I would farm. The Valk mask was -always- 100-250k above what I had. Finally when it jumped to 1.5mil and I had 950k, I caved and bought the Walkure mask for 900k. When they made Emp Pin and Leaping Boots and stuff like that Rare/Ex, one of the places people started camping stuff for alot of cash was the Valk Mask drop.

Always just out of my grasp....and I know there are other people to blame besides the gilfarmers. I blame greedy regular players too, don't get me wrong. But haveing the Valk mask dangled infront of me for weeks on end was just too much.

One day I'll be able to buy it, but for now its persuit is too frustrating.

Jae · Post by **Jae** » Wed Jan 11, 2006 9:10 am

Play the game like them? 7-10 hours a day making insect paste or arrowwood lumber, playing all day every day by the book in crafting so I can skyrocket up to the 90's and HQ for weeks on end, making 1mil gil a day? I pay 15 bucks a month to play a game. Not 15 bucks a month to work like a Chinese Laundry Shop worker.

What I want you to see.. is.. um...? You need to work for what you need to get.
The items you want to get does not come freely...
The time you sucking your thumb staring at AH... go out there and farm... do something productive... even camp nm... compete with people.
It's impossible to beat them?... It's impossible to beat bot?
Oh yes... its hard. But not impossible.

Since when vanadiel decided GS monopoly the NM?... maybe they too good at it =O

From what I know.. Eviticus.. as I suggested to do BCNM40.. You wouldnt do it... maybe you dont like my information... maybe you just want to play your own style. Stuff that you dont want to do.. I cannot force you to do it. But you dont even trying and all I hear is complain.

Ninja is lame... I dont like this and that.. I dont wanna compete with GS... they monopoly this nm... hmm? What you like to do? Just be able to lvl dragoon and item will appear from the sky?

I earned 9mil this week just by helping someone do his BCNM40... not even using my orb. I said I dont need money.. he still gave me.

Now you dont wanna do this and that... auction house price costs too much... you not gonna do anything about it... obviously you not gonna get anything out of it. As Chaoskitten mentioned... our server GS camps Valkyrie Mask... Prrsha and her friend was able to beat GS and got drop... didnt they?

Post by **Sugami** » Wed Jan 11, 2006 12:15 pm

Can't really do BCNM40 with DRG, it's a pretty crappy job for BCNMs unfortunately

plus you need friends with the rigth jobs with seals on at the same time, organising people is a bitch.

Tinacat · Post by **Tinacat** » Wed Jan 11, 2006 4:53 pm

I live right next to East Saint Louis. The main interstate highway drives right past crumbling houses, brightly lit strip clubs, and daily theft and murder.

i live about 50 miles from East St. Louis, and i agree that it is a crap hole.

Chaoskitten, In Communist Canuckistan, do you not have punctuation spaceing? And also, you dont HAVE to have uber gear.

Jae, you were handgifted practically everything you wanted from your connections, or friends in the game, you just had to ask for it.

Eviticus · Post by **Eviticus** » Wed Jan 11, 2006 7:56 pm

Thanks for not reading all of my post, Jae.

What I want you to see.. is.. um...? You need to work for what you need to get.
The items you want to get does not come freely...
The time you sucking your thumb staring at AH... go out there and farm... do something productive... even camp nm... compete with people.

Did you not hear the part about me farming? Yes, thank you, I did try. I -don't- expect it to come freely, thank you. I -do- expect some semblence of stability though in the market. And when the value of the gil drops out from under my feet, don't expect me to just shrug it off.

From what I know.. Eviticus.. as I suggested to do BCNM40.. You wouldnt do it... maybe you dont like my information... maybe you just want to play your own style. Stuff that you dont want to do.. I cannot force you to do it. But you dont even trying and all I hear is complain.

Sugami is right, Jae. About the second part, anyways. I don't know people with the right jobs at the right levels to do that. No one who'd help me, anyways. I've tried other BCNM's and have gotten {Death} 5 times in a row. I do agree I could raise the money I need if I could get the right people to help me with these BCNM's, but I guess my connections just aren't as good as yours, Jae.

And, Sugami, Dragoon is a perfectly fine job for the BCNM's I've been in. As long as everyone else stays alive and does their job, HEaling Breath makes me a good healer and a good DD at the same time. All I need to do is get my Rdm leveled up and I'll be even more awesome in the ring. All I need is a Yagudo drink or two and I'll never even notice the low mana pool.

As Chaoskitten mentioned... our server GS camps Valkyrie Mask... Prrsha and her friend was able to beat GS and got drop... didnt they?

Not everyone is lucky enough to have high level friends willing to camp a lvl 50 NM that can take up to 3 hours to spawn in a high linking area that drops a 1.5mil item they are just willing to give away, assuming it even drops. I guess you're just special.

Kintrra · Post by **Kintrra** » Wed Jan 11, 2006 11:17 pm

Sugami wrote:Can't really do BCNM40 with DRG, it's a pretty crappy job for BCNMs unfortunately plus you need friends with the rigth jobs with seals on at the same time, organising people is a bitch.

BCNM40, Royal Jelly, I've done it every time with a DRG, a PLD/NIN, and a RDM. I've not lost this BCNM once. RDM uses Bind and Gravity on the slimes starting on the right, and keeps the closest 3 on that side busy while the PLD/NIN and the DRG start on the left and go around the circle, demolishing slimes as they go. Just make sure the PLD has the appropriate gear for attacking the slimes instead of defending against them, all party members use appropriate food, and the RDM tosses the occasional heal on the DRG if they haven't subbed WHM or RDM, and the PLD can help with that too, and this BCNM is a cakewalk.

Wed Jan 11, 2006 11:20 pm

There are other ways to make Gil than Farming, Crafting, and Gardening.

My three main mules are all Rank 2. I just took my San d'Oria mule to M 2 - 3, did the Drain Scroll quest, then ran her to Bastok for the Warp Scroll quest*. Next the Bastok mule will head to San d'Oria for the Drain Scroll quest. Getting the Windurst mule through Windurst M 2 - 1.... /shudder

Some just keep making Bastok mules for the Warp Scroll quest. Only takes fame 2 after all.

I have a friend who has run several mules to Norg for the Utsusemi quest. While he will get them Kazam keys, I have heard of people doing that trick and just buying the Airship pass.

*(edit) her trip home was MUCH swifter

Post by **Sugami** » Thu Jan 12, 2006 1:11 pm

Eh well only BCNMs I'm aquainted with are Under Observasion, Steaming Sprouts and Wings of Furry and DRG isn't good for any of those

maybe steaming sprouts, possibly Under Observation if you have a really good kiter ^^;

Post by **Alya Mizar (Tsybil)** » Thu Jan 12, 2006 4:48 pm

Sugami wrote:Eh well only BCNMs I'm aquainted with are Under Observasion, Steaming Sprouts and Wings of Furry and DRG isn't good for any of those maybe steaming sprouts, possibly Under Observation if you have a really good kiter ^^;

Sprouts takes two DDs, but the key is a GOOD Bard. Why can't a DRG be one of the DDs? If this question seems silly, remember I have only done this one as RDM and didn't even get to watch the fighting, just hang out keeping the BRD alive.

One standard setup for Wings is Tank, RDM, BRD or BST. At L 20 cap the RDM is used as both melee and healer. Why can't a DRG/WHM sub for the RDM? OK, the tank may have to be a PLD for the extra healing, but bats are weak to a polearms' piercing damage. And even without that little bonus, DRG massivly outdamages RDM Melee at 20.

From my limited experience with UO, don't try this one as a melee. I did it with two NIN/WARs. Their strategy was provoke but not engage the smaller eyes, turning their back on them and killing them with NIN tools while I kited the big eye. It seems something horrid happens if you engage the small eyes, what I still am not sure. It is bad enough if you don't engage them BTW.

Keavy · Post by **Keavy** » Thu Jan 12, 2006 6:27 pm

I see the same problem here as I see on every other MMO forum: People complaining that making money takes too long and the super cool gear costs too much. I'd love to have a Vermy cloak and a full set of HQ Elemental staves for my Mage but I understand that I will have to work a long time for these things.

I would quit this game tomorrow if SE made it incredibly easy to make massive amounts of gil and obtain all the uber gear because then the game would be pointless and no longer fun.