What would you think if....

[Prrsha]

Here is my thoughts, you said German, well Did you know that the only Nazi soldiers, who truely were them were hilters personal goons? The German Navy/Army guys, weren't nazi but labeled that becuase of Hitler and the SS/Gestapu(sp). The real military, who were jsut used by the nazi's only fought to defend their homes and the like. Much like any military fights to defend their homes. Just Information from a friend who used to live in Germany when he was stationed at an Army Base there, (He's out did his time hehe, this was back in 90s though)

You are quite correct. I was leaning more toward the Nazi party leaders then the individual solders though. Most of the soldiers were just that, soldiers and the majority of them acted as humanely as anyone could in a war. Yep, the SS were the black hand of the Nazi party so to speak. They were on ones in charge of the concentration camps and were in charge of suppressing the people.

Some people joined the SS willingly, some left the SS after what they saw later and were shot as traitors. Some were even sort of "drafted" into it. Some obeyed their orders out of fear, some did so because they enjoyed causing suffering in others and some did because they were brainwashed by propaganda. Some people in the SS even committed suicide out of guilt.

[Alya Mizar (Tsybil)]

Here is my thoughts, you said German, well Did you know that the only Nazi soldiers, who truely were them were hilters personal goons? The German Navy/Army guys, weren't nazi but labeled that becuase of Hitler and the SS/Gestapu(sp).

Ummmmm..... Not at all right.

The SS, orignaly the SA, was at the start, a verry spirirual thing, heavily influnced by Le Mort d'Arthur, the Song of Roland, legends of the Tetunic Knights, and early Christanity.

Saw an interview with a woman who was an orignal member of the SS. Basic tenent of her her dicusion, the SA was something beautiful, and Hitler twisted it into something that it never was meant to be.

The real military, who were jsut used by the nazi's only fought to defend their homes and the like. Much like any military fights to defend their homes. Just Information from a friend who used to live in Germany when he was stationed at an Army Base there, (He's out did his time hehe, this was back in 90s though)

Sure.... that's why crowds of fine upstanding German Citizens defended the Jews and their property on Krystalnight.

The vast majority of those fine upstanding Germans were taken in by Hitler's propaganda, or cowed into silence. A LARGE miniority were 100% in favor of everything he said.

You can train people to be sadistic torturers. You can teach them to enjoy humilitaing others, even enjoy beating helpless people to death.

Hitler did it. Boy George is doing it in America today. Who's homes are we defending in Iraq? Who's homes were the Germans defending in Russia and France?

BA History 1983 U of Washington, Seattle.

[Karou Ariyen]

Tsybil your a Riot, Havnt you ever heard of following orders even if you do not agree with them????? I find it funny becuase even the United States Military, even if they don't agree with superiors orders, they follow them anyways.

And I think you dont research WWII very much. A while back, I think 89ish, I remember reading an article on a german WWII Navy captain survivor, I had remembered how he talked about "the nazi"s. The article stated that the German Military was nothing but pawns used by the Nazi's.

As for the german crowds responding ro propaganda? DId you know that in war the real story is only half told? What about those who showed up becuas e they didnt want to be branded traitors? Or those who didnt show up and were later shot as traitors? Dont you get it Tysbil. The Victors in war write the history books. The Allies won WWII and there fore a lof of what really happened with germany was thrown out, becuase to us, Even if the military wasnt part of the Nazi organization of germany and just their pawns, or people in germany didnt really believe what hitler did was right, they wanted to make it all seem like they were bad guys.

Tysbil you are once again showing that your jsut like every other american, you see one side of the story, and you refuse to see or learn the other half.

So tell me this..... are you saying that every military organization in the WWII Armies of Germany were NAZIS!? Becuase if you do, your not looking at the real picture. Nazi's dropped to torture and cruelty, something Hitler twisted it into, the military? they were grunts, They followed the Genvea convention. But when the SS showed up at Prision Camps, which was likely all the damn time, they pretended it didnt exsist. My point is, many NON NAZI German military's feared the SS and were afraid of being shot, and thus were played as pawns.

Think about it, you dont agree with your gov's organization, so if you dont fight with them, you'll be shot las a traitor, would you willingly do that? I don't think you will.

[Prrsha]

Tysbil you are once again showing that your jsut like every other american, you see one side of the story, and you refuse to see or learn the other half.

Cough, cough... I'm an american. *points up to the post about painting and brushes*

[Karou Ariyen]

Tysbil you are once again showing that your jsut like every other american, you see one side of the story, and you refuse to see or learn the other half.

Cough, cough... I'm an american. *points up to the post about painting and brushes*

*cough cough*SO AM I, I think britain is the dumbest country around becuase they ran through the forests in bright red coats and showed NO MILITARY TACTICS. People say I'm worng, i think their nuts, that proves I'm jsut like them.

my point is NO AMERICAN, even MYSELF looks at the full picture, when we do its about other things that differ, Frankly, Tsybil doesnt see the other half ot the germans in WWII, but I dont and never will recognize brittain's military "idiocy" in the american revolution. Nuff Said.

[Yugi]

sorry..you all hate me so much..;.;..ill go stab myself to death happy? god i hate this...well they me off..im not blaming all of them just those who do..

[Prrsha]

sorry..you all hate me so much..;.;..ill go stab myself to death happy? god i hate this...well they me off..im not blaming all of them just those who do..

I don't hate you.

The fact that you dislike people who do things like that shows that you have kind heart. I was just pointing out that it is not wise to catagorize people into a group. Granted some NA players are down right dicks but I am sure if you gave the majority of NA players a chance, you'd find that most of them are nice.

[Yukira]

I generally act as I act, and say nothing about RL gender. I don't ever bring the subject up, but will respond honestly when asked. I like to keep the illusion of the game whereever I can, if that makes any sense.

what's funny, b/c I'm generally a thoughtful person and try to be considerate to others, in game and in RL, in game ppl just assume that I'm a girl. I guess ppl don't assume guys to be considerate and all that jazz.

Exactly the same thing with me. I like to roleplay a catGIRL but if someone wants to know my real gender, I tell them. Although this roleplaying has at least once led to a rather humiliating experience for me and one other player...of course I told him the truth as soon as I realized he really thought I was a girl but...it was rather embarrasing nonetheless. Oh, well...I guess it just can't be avoided when some people roleplay their characters and some don't.

[Yugi]

sorry..you all hate me so much..;.;..ill go stab myself to death happy? god i hate this...well they me off..im not blaming all of them just those who do..

I don't hate you.

The fact that you dislike people who do things like that shows that you have kind heart. I was just pointing out that it is not wise to catagorize people into a group. Granted some NA players are down right dicks but I am sure if you gave the majority of NA players a chance, you'd find that most of them are nice.

i really hate myself for saying all that..

[Alya Mizar (Tsybil)]

Tsybil your a Riot, Havnt you ever heard of following orders even if you do not agree with them????? I find it funny becuase even the United States Military, even if they don't agree with superiors orders, they follow them anyways.

Aquaint yourself with the UCMJ. It plainly states you have the obligation to resist illegal orders. This is not a right, nor a duty, but an obligation.

Aquaint yourself with a bit of post WWII history, the Neurimburg Trials. "I was just following orders" is no defense.

I follow orders I disagree with. These orders we are discussing are not merely disagreable, they are illegal.

"Not as bad as Sadam" is nowhere good enough.

-------

As to the Nazis, actually the only Nazis were the card carrying members of the National Socialist Party. A distinct minority. But many Germans believed in one part or another of the whole spectrum of propaganda.

Many card carrying Nazis believed none of it. A great number were frogmarched down to party headquaters by family or bosses and ordered to sign up shortly after... Look up "October casualitys" (I think it is Oct.) Many ordanary citizens believed all of it. Many soldiers believed none of the Nazi stuff but say to this day "We could have won if..." They still believe the military part. You can see them on History Chanel documentaries. You can see that SA Officer's wife I mentioned there too. She still believes as well, but what she believes in perished in the Night of the Long Knives.

[Yugi]

why are we talking about this..it might be a good idea to stop..

[Karou Ariyen]

Tysbil did I once mention POST WWII? I was talking about DURING the war. The events leading UP to WWII, Not Once did I mention Post World War II.

Geez Tsybil, i really wish you'd read more carefully.

[Yugi]

heehee..

[Darkmattre]

wow, talk about a hijacked thread.

[Yugi]

that would be my fault >,< im trying to fix it ^^'

[Aony]

hehe, yea...but think about it: I have seen about 2 topics so far that have been completely on topic the whole way. But we'll try to get back on topic

[Yugi]

yesssss my precccioussss...gollum gollum! >.<

[Karou Ariyen]

Pantsman though he could silence me.... He thought that he had locked me in prision, he was wrong, I managed to escape and now I will show the truth that Pantsman is the real enemy, he's so lazy he allows crime to happen..... Forget the Pants Signal.....

The Panties Princess shall show the city a new wave of justice....

Pantsman is (C) to Scott Raimsoomar of www.vgcats.com any refrences are not own by me. Panties Princess is me, so dun steal me

[Yugi]

i wouldnt think of doing that so dont worry.^^

[Alya Mizar (Tsybil)]

Tysbil did I once mention POST WWII? I was talking about DURING the war. The events leading UP to WWII, Not Once did I mention Post World War II.

Geez Tsybil, i really wish you'd read more carefully.

You did not mention post WWII. I did. WWII was one thing. The war crimes commited during it were another. I am talking about war crimes, not the war. To understand the what and why of war crimes, you need to study Nurimberg.

Leading up to the war? Lets see, the Nazis came in second in 34? I think it was. Then they just took over the government. They decided that all German sepakers anywhere MUST be part of Germany. (A few decades earlier this was called the Grossduitch [my spelling is even worse in other languages] soloution and was studiously avoided.

After gathering together all the land thay could steal without open conflict, and securing their eastern flank by a treaty with Russia, they went off to defend their homes by invading Belgum, Holland and France. A little more defending their homes in Scandanivia, and suddenly it was Russia's turn. The second Dra nag Osten. Yup there is nothing like defending your homes on some one else's soil.

After the war, a few of them were held to account for the excess zeal with which they defended their homes while abroad. As well as they way they treated prisoners. This happened in Nuremburg.

TOTRUE IS A CRIME. WE ARE COMITING WAR CRIMES. You need to aquaint yourself with this part of history. Indeed, not having heard of the atrocoties commited by Japanese in China, we hung some of the Japanese high command for "Crimes against the Peace" ie picking a fight with us, who had done nothing to deserve it. Explain how this is at all different from the invasion of Iraq.

Oh... I forgot... the Japanese were simply defending their homes in the skys over Pearl Harbor....

Your father defends our homes every time he puts that blue uniform on. Who's homes are we defending in Iraq?

Yugi, you are not the only thread hijacker out there

[Karou Ariyen]

Once again Tsybil you only prove the point that Everyone of us Refuses to see the full picture of anything in this world becuase we feel so passionate about one side that we are blinded by the other. And AFTER The war the following orders bit wasnt a valid defense I get that. By the way Tysbil, I have a second cousin whose's a United States Army Computer Specialist, He's being sent to Iraq, And Tysbil if you so much as disrespect that man who even though he's against us being in Iraq, but is willing to go and fight to protect our home and our land, I guaranteee You won't like the results. You shouldnt disrespect the men and Women everyday who chose to take that job to defend us all. People Like Kessa who have the bravery to make sure this country is free.

The Japanese are at fault for bombing pearl harbor attacking us unprovoked yes. But White I agree that we should have fought back and White I was glad that in WWII japanese soldiers fell to bullets and flamethrows courtesy of the United States Marine Corps and Navy, It was our fault for dropping that bomb on hirshima. When we dropped the atomic bomb what did we prove? That we were the superior military? Perhaps. But we only sank to their level. That is a situation where no one wins, and there are no right sides to chose. I agree we should have fought back, I think also the bomb drop went to far.


But Tsybil since you think its okay to slaughter CIVILIAN WOMEN AND CHILDREN with an atomic bomb, then that means its okay to say we dont kill women and children in war, but its okay to kill them with a bomb that hurt many people. Tysbil you need to look at the full picture which you do not. You and I are not germans, we do not speak to germans we dont knwo the real story of Nazi's or of the Japanese bombing of pearl harbor. So lets just drop this. If you watched the special on discovery channel about Hiroshima, you would have learned that there were some Japanese soldiers, and im not talking ab out the pilots that bombed pearl harbor, that during the ground battles questioned why they were fighting but followed orders. After the Japanese Military started rescue efforts in Hirshima after the bomb, and you will not call me a liar Tysbil, this was on Discovery Channel I have a hard copy VHS of it, A surviving soldier, which i'm shocked was still alive, talked about how the soldiers were at conflict, they wanted to help the victoms out but they didnt want to disobey their orders. "We wanted to give them water as they asked for, but we were told not to, becuase the water speeds up the burning process. It was a morale conflict, one none of us wanted to be a part of." But once again that came from a JP Veteran. So Unless you are a japanese soldier or World War II Veteran, same as myself, lets not talk like we know everything.


That Japan bit I just typed? Wow Tysbil I didnt know that info until I watched the Information on that Hiroshima Special. We learn something new everyday, the bombings of Hiroshima I learned about. BTW The pilot who flew the bomb on teh plane, The quote pretty much said that He told them to get the bomb off his plane now. The United States Military said, that isnt your plane its ours, and you will fly it and drop the bomb or leave. Again here's an american soldier who thought that Atomic Bomb was wrong and shouldnt be used but he followed orders anyways.

[Yugi]

so much text...x.x

[Prrsha]

This sums up the current conflict nicely:

http://www.pointlesswasteoftime.com/games/wargames.html

Imagine if video games matched real life.

[Karou Ariyen]

they do, becuase my b/f keeps trying to beat me in Soul Caliber II and just can't seem to XD

[Yugi]

^^;

[Alya Mizar (Tsybil)]

But Tsybil since you think its okay to slaughter CIVILIAN WOMEN AND CHILDREN with an atomic bomb, then that means its okay to say we dont kill women and children in war, but its okay to kill them with a bomb that hurt many people.

When did I say anything like this?

The war against civilians in WWII was mostly started by "Bomber" Harris (Haris?) head of the British bomber comand. He should have been hung. Funny how the German V 1s and V 2s, highly inaccurate weapons, were called terror weapons but the bombers on both sides that targeted cities rather than war materials or transport were not.

War against civilians is wrong, but not a War Crime. /sigh

Even the Quran states that war against noncombantants is a crime (sin?). I know Muslims who are appalled at what is being done in the name of their religon.

[Karou Ariyen]

well gee tysbil we both misread each other but lets not let this discussion ruin a friendship okay? Lets put it behind us and jsut call a truce please?

[Neoshinobi]

well gee tysbil we both misread each other but lets not let this discussion ruin a friendship okay? Lets put it behind us and jsut call a truce please?

Seems like all you did was badmouth tysbil...

[Kessa]

I say ths to all the people who have not been to either Gitmo (Cuba), and have personally seen these prisoners that we are supposedly tortureing, or have been deployed to Iraq of Afghanistan.

Get on a plane and fly to Iraq and look someone in the eye and ask them what they think of the US being over there.

I've spent 11 months in Afghanistan, and watch people cry with joy when we explained to them that they are now free of the taliban. I saw hundreds of people walk for 10 or more miles or ride there donkey in to come vote the 1st time.

I've spent 8 months in Iraq, participated in the invasion of Baghdad and Fallugah. I saw the same thing there when the people realized they we now free.

You live in America, and have never been without the basic freedoms that you enjoy. Nor if I or any other Serviceman has anything to do about it WILL NEVER BE WITHOUT FREEDOM. You forget that freedom isnt free, it is provided for you by the US Military. We will all be dead before we let someone else take it away.

You are right when you say we are not protecting American homes, but we are PROTECTING FREEDOM. Its not only our duty, but our obligation to spread democracy, read our Declaration of Independence its in there.

The people in Gitmo. HA! the fact that CNN says they are suffering is a joke. Every single prisoner has gained weight because he is eating better. They have Navy and Army doctors taking care of their every problem. They have religous studies and chaplins to aid in their prayers. And the truth of the matter is that they are living better than the MP's gaurding them. On Marine Hill where our barraks were, they are practically condemmed, but that doesnt really matter.


Like I said earlier, if you really want to see the whole story. Get off your but and go somewhere. Iran, Syria, most African Contries. See how they live. See what a Dictator that rules through fear does to his people. See what its like when the soliders can just go into a school and start killing and raping because they can. Go ahead jsut go to half the places I've been, and come back and tell me that we are not fighting for something worth wile

Go take a trip to some of these places. Iraq, Cuba, Haiti, Liberia, Niger, Dominican Republic, Ethiopia, Kenya, Afghanistan. Go see how they live. Not through a camera, not through the Media, but with you own damn eyes and heart.

[Darkmattre]

yeah, i've pretty much stopped watching CNN. Watching things with my own eyes, and then seeing the same thing retold by CNN later can be, at times, downright sickening.

I agree very much with what Kessa said, and it's almost the same exact thing I've told people time and again.