Allow Non-Mithra Former Members?

Syine · Post by **Syine** » Fri Oct 10, 2003 8:05 am

The question has been raised about whether people who were Mithra in beta but choose a different race in retail will be allowed to be in the new linkshell. Tigara was fond of keeping the shell democratic, and had put it to an on-LS vote before. The informal agreement was that we wouldn't fairly have any grounds for excluding anyone if we did so. But the situation has changed a bit, with so many former Mithra picking different races. So let's vote again and this time use the board's features to make it work. I don't intend for this to be binding. The LS creator will ultimately decide who gets added. I merely am adding this so that she can have our opinions for guidance.

Post by **Cyndari** » Sun Oct 12, 2003 8:07 pm

I think that we should let former members join, kinda make like honorary Mithras

Post by **Golddess** » Mon Oct 13, 2003 1:05 am

Yes, definitely.

Perhaps we could even extend this honorary-Mithra-thing to non-Mithra we meet in retail.

Post by **Mystiana** » Mon Oct 13, 2003 2:42 pm

I vote No.

Mithra Pride was the 'Mithra Linkshell".. everyone on the beta knew it, and it defined the shell. I had a lot of friends who weren't Mithra, and I understood that they could never join the LS. That's just the way it was. We wouldn't even give a pearl to Myaurry's secondary Taru character (even though I was for that...).

I understood why this was done, and it should be upheld for the real thing. For those who don't stay as a Mithra, there's always your friends list.

ranruriko · Post by **ranruriko** » Mon Oct 13, 2003 9:06 pm

I think beta-mithra is ok, but that's it. No non-mithra that aren't ex-beta-mithras should be allowed. I'm still not sure if we should let non-mithra in at all in the retail, beta or not, but I can see things are leaning one way.

Ishe · Post by **Ishe** » Wed Oct 15, 2003 4:27 pm

I agree. I think beta veterans should be able to join regardless of race, but we should make absolutely NO exceptions for retail players who simply want to be a part of the club. It's understandable to let non-mithra LS veterans in because during the beta because they contributed to the group and have earned their position in the new LS. We should come to an agreement, though, that we won't let anyone else in that isn't a mithra. That includes friends and family of concurrent or past members, and as stated above, people who want to join just for the hell of it. After all, it wouldn't be Mithra Pride if we just let everyone in.

Post by **Golddess** » Thu Oct 16, 2003 12:52 am

Question, does this also apply to the one Hume we let on during beta? Will he be allowed back on the LS in retail? I say yes.

Syine · Post by **Syine** » Thu Oct 16, 2003 12:40 pm

I was afraid this ambiguity would come up when someone made an exception to let him join the beta LS. And now I'm gonna say some things which I fear may hurt Ancalagon's feelings, and hurt feelings are at the core of why changing the membership rules is such a touchy issue.

For the record, I voted yes, but I did so not considering Ancalagon among those we would make an exception for. Race has never been the main point of MithraPride for me. While I've enjoyed a small bit of the Mithra-specific talk, and the race restriction both distinguishes the LS and makes a convenient membership criteria that nobody can take personally (and therefore helps limit hurt feelings), the great thing about MithraPride for me personally quickly became the specific people who were members. The people I got to know. The people I shared advice with. The people I chatted with. The people I did favors for, who did favors for me, who I did quests and missions with. These are people I'd like to stay in touch with, no matter what may change about them. If we allowed former members regardless of race, the gang could continue on as before, and I think that's great.

As much as I like Ancalagon, unfortunately he missed out on all of those bonding activities and so I don't feel as close to him as I do most of you guys. He never really had time to become an essential part of our gang in my mind. I'm sure, were he allowed to join sooner, we could have had those good experiences and become fast friends and then I wouldn't be able to imagine MithraPride without him, and would want to see him be a part of the LS, wherever it moved. However, as it stands, my tendency is still to consider him an outsider of the MithraPride group, subject to whatever rules we decide for outsiders who want to join.

I emphasize that this is nothing against Ancalagon personally, nor am I saying he shouldn't be in the LS. If we do decide to allow new people of any race, I'd be happy to see him join. But he was never a major part of the experience of "being in MithraPride" that I'm primarily interested in recreating before we start expanding the LS with new members again, so I would tend to consider him the same as any new person who wants to join.

Ancalagon · Post by **Ancalagon** » Thu Oct 16, 2003 5:31 pm

Syine, dont worry...

I understood that MithraPride was "mithra only", and I'm still quite sure the new MithraPride will be also. No hard feelings were harbored when I was told why I was unable to join. To tell the truth, I didn't really expect to be able to play around for the last few days; although I did enjoy getting to meet many of you, I dont think that chance will happen again.

I guess for the time being though, all of you are my in-laws, lol.

Post by **Cyndari** » Fri Oct 17, 2003 5:39 pm

It's a tough call because I feel a certain pride that it is Mithra only, but yet I would be sad if someone like Lynn or Grey came back as something and they couldn't be part of our group. The idea of limiting it to beta only members that changed works very well in my opinion. If the retail players dont like it too bad.

Too bad you cant make like an Honorary Member subshell, then we could put these people int here.

We should let Anc in so we the LS will have someone to pick-on, like an LS punching bag. hahahaha

I'm only kidding Anc

Ancalagon · Post by **Ancalagon** » Fri Oct 17, 2003 10:04 pm

lol, yeah... whatever Cyndari.

I may not bite... but that doesnt mean I cant get someone else to do it for me...

As to whether or not MithraPride remains Mithra only... I personally dont see why it matters, even in retail. I understand why a leader could desire to keep the LS open to a single race of characters... but excluding someone simply on the bias of their persona is not the best way to make a first impression. I know quite a few people (myself included for quite some time; until I met more than just one member) who did not have a very high opinion of the LS, or the people in it.

My point is, by excluding some people, you're missing out on the entire idea behind MMORPG's... *to meet new people*! Without changes to MithraPride, the LS will not grow... nor will it change... nor will others' attitdues toward it change.

I only hope to see someone who will accept these things, and do something about them. No one ever wants to hear "You're not wanted... Go away".

Ishe · Post by **Ishe** » Sat Oct 18, 2003 9:18 pm

It matters because there would be no point in calling the linkshell 'MithraPride' if you let everyone in. And it's not a matter of "You're not wanted..Go away." I was a part of the linkshell since July and I know for a fact over 99% of the members are very nice, very friendly people if you stop to talk to them. Hell, the founder, Tigara, GAVE AWAY tens of thousands of gil worth of silver equipment to the linkshell and to anyone else in the area who was willing to ask. Yes, that includes Galkas, Humes, Elvaans and Tarus. You shouldn't generalize the group based on our membership criteria. Just because we were a mithra-only group does not necessarily mean we are self-righteous, biased jerks. We simply wanted a forum to talk about the game with people who shared similar interests.

As for meeting new people, let me clue you in to a little feature of PlayOnline called a friends list. You think because we are a mithra linkshell that we did not socialize with other players in the game. I had a very extensive and diverse friends list before the beta ended, and I'm sure each and every other MP member had the same. The fact is, our LS doesn't need to change its only criteria to grow. It grows on its own as mithra all over the world discover and become interested in it. I like the LS as it was in the beta, and I hope to make lots of new friends in retail.

Post by **Cyndari** » Sun Oct 19, 2003 12:28 am

Ishe I think that you are missing the point here, we are not talking about just letting any Joe Shmoe come along and join us. We are talking about beta players who were Mithras, in our LS, who have changed race in retail.
I say that we should let former LS members back into the fold regardless of race because they were people that were close to us.

Jeniphel · Post by **Jeniphel** » Sun Oct 19, 2003 1:45 am

Ouch.

Someone hit a nerve.

Calm down there Ishe.....
Most people feel the same way that you do Ishe, it's just that we don't want to lose the mithrapride beta LS members and that having more than one linkshell could become a hassle...

That, and they can take some of the heat off of Ancalagon, the poor guy.

Ishe · Post by **Ishe** » Sun Oct 19, 2003 9:42 pm

I think you guys are misinterpreting my last message. I'm totally for letting non-mithra-ex-beta (oy, could that title get any more wordy? ^^) LS members join in retail. I stated that in my first post on this thread. My last post was actually directed toward Anc because he seems to believe that we are somehow biased or elitist, something I don't think is true. It was really more of an off-topic post, and I think that's why things got all confuzzled ^^ Anyhow, I'm not angry at all, I was just trying to help Ancalagon understand why we would let LS veterans who change race for retail back in the shell, and not other non-mithra players.

Kismet · Post by **Kismet** » Mon Oct 20, 2003 4:15 am

too bad we can link linkshells that way this topic would be moot.

Ancalagon · Post by **Ancalagon** » Mon Oct 20, 2003 4:39 am

Ishe, I dont think you quite understood my comment the way it was intended....

I believe that all of the MithraPride beta members should be allowed to join the retail MithraPride linkshell, regardless of their new race. These persons were a part of the MithraPride "sisterhood", and should not be rejected due to a cosmetic choice.

However, I do believe that MithraPride should to *some* extent be open to non-mithras, even those outside of the "sisterhood". Barring membership to mithras-only and not accepting other respectable persons *does* put off an elitist attitude towards others. This attitude *was* felt in the beta, and if continued, I do not think it will help the linkshell's reputation in any way. I do not mean for just any person to be able to join, mayhap only specific individuals, or other possible criteria can be met. However, I am not the one in charge(nor do I ever expect to be), and I am simply stating what I have observed and predicted.

As for your point on Tigara (and others) being reputable persons, I can understand why you would defend them. I hold nothing against anyone in the linkshell. However, I am trying to indicate that Tigara (along with some of the other members) did not have a very good reputation amongst many other beta testers. I do not know why this is such, but as stated earlier, I am simply stating what I have observed.

"Friends List"... lol, dont get me started...
There is a reason I tell people "I know *everyone*..." It's because... for the most part, I do. I enjoy (to an extent, thrive) off of meeting new people, and learning about them. Making friends is something I am constatly trying to do. I may offend some people by approaching them the wrong way, though I try to make amends to those same people with another approach, and often, an apology.

Ishe · Post by **Ishe** » Mon Oct 20, 2003 5:22 am

Gotcha. And I apologize for the mix-up. I guess we just have different opinions on the matter. But that's what the group is for, right? To share ideas and opinions. (though I still think it should be mithra only with the exception of beta vets >:D)

Syine · Post by **Syine** » Mon Oct 20, 2003 6:47 am

I've said my bit on this before, but I think any LS with any limiting membership criteria whatsoever may be interpreted as elitist. The only way to absolutely avoid this is to allow everyone. Otherwise, the question when you finally do exclude someone becomes, "Why can he join, and I can't?"

The difference with MithraPride from a more general LS, is that (if we keep our present membership criteria), we have a simple answer to that: We only allow Mithra. (Or perhaps, slightly complicating it if we bend the rules for former members, "We only allow Mithra, and those who were in MithraPride in the beta.") It may leave non-Mithra feeling left out and in the cold, but at least it's nothing personal. Rules are rules. It's not that we don't like other people. It's just that we've decided the line has to be drawn somewhere, and picked something arbitrary but relatively harmless that happens to exclude some people.

The alternative, of course, where we let people in on individual merit, seems in fact more elitist. Because when the same question, "Why can he join, and I can't?", gets asked, the answer is both more insulting and personal to the person asking. Suddenly, it's not about your race, but about you personally. And I think that would generate bad feelings a lot more quickly than if we kept it about race. And what if one member of the LS wants someone to join and another member doesn't? Such an unpleasant event could divide the LS.

Tigara may have stepped on people's toes, but as far as I saw, she never imposed her personal like or dislike of a person in the decision process for letting a person into the LS. Nobody did. Nobody could. If you're a Mithra, great, you're in. No exceptions. Be nice, don't abuse the shell, be a Mithra. Those are the only rules. Anyone who follows those can join, without exception. If you think about that, that's pretty great. Aside from that initial decision to be Mithra-only, nobody holds control over whether someone can join or not. We don't judge people, or debate what they could add to the LS, or argue about who's a good person or not. The decision is already made for us. All Mithras are in.

So, from my point of view, race is actually the most benign of criteria for membership, if we must have any limits at all. It permits the LS to have character and distinction, the only qualifications to join are objective and easy to determine, and membership growth is very open and encouraged.

If there were a way to allow non-Mithra without diluting those great aspects of what we have now, I'm all ears. I'm not too optimistic about an easy alternative, but if there is one, I wanna hear about it.

Post by **Cyndari** » Mon Oct 20, 2003 4:40 pm

Well how about this for idea? What are the qualities of being Mithra? What are the standards that our linkshell hold? What is expected of each and everyone one of us?

If we came up with answers to some of these questions we might able to set a standard for which Non-Mithras could get into the LS. BUT the exception here would be that as a Non-Mithra, you do not ask to join, you must be asked to join. You would need to then A) meet the standards of the LS. and B) be voted in by the Mithra members of the LS.

Of course like I said, this is only an idea.

Post by **Golddess** » Mon Oct 20, 2003 10:01 pm

Grr. THREE TIMES comcrap disconnected me while I was writing my view on this discussion.

This seems like a nice discussion we've got going here, and I think I'll contribute my 2 cents now.

Before I go any further, just to make it clear how I feel about the LS, it does not really matter to me what your race is, but if you are a jerk or you hate Mithra, then you don't belong on the LS.

If all you care about is my opinion on who should join the LS, then you probably shouldn't read any further. Just trying to keep people from wasting some of their time ^_^

I see MithraPride as being similar to any private organization. There is a certain criteria one must meet in order to join, the group can be seen as elitist because of that criteria, and there are those out there that are mad and want to change it.

Lets look at the Boy Scouts for a moment. Yeah, someone might be a great person to hang out with, a fun friend who is always there for you, but if they are gay (and this is not intended to offend any homosexuals who might read this), then they would not be allowed to join the Boy Scouts. The Boy Scouts, as a private group, have attempted to remain true to their beliefs that homosexuality is wrong and a sin, and many have praised them for doing so even though those same people might not agree with them (Hmm, this is getting kinda difficult to write without sounding like a homophobe or something). Yet there are those out there that say that they are being something-ist (can't think of the right word right now) and that the government should step in and TELL A PRIVATE ORGANIZATION WHAT THEY CAN AND CANNOT DO!

MithraPride was originally formed as a Mithra-only LS. People called us racist for it, but the fact of the matter is, ALL private organizations have criteria for joining, and the only ones who should have the power to change that criteria are the members of that organization. Ours just so happens to be Race. And in no way does that indicate being biased against other races, at least not in my book. We may not let other races join, but that does not mean we treat other races unfairly. Just as the Boy Scouts not wanting homosexuals to join doesn't mean that they are biased towards homosexuals. God said that practicing homosexuality is a sin, but He also said "Hate the sin, but love the sinner" (No, that is probably not an exact quote).

Of course, another way to look at our LS would be in its name. We are MithraPride. To me, that seems to indicate some sort of love for Mithras, be that a "Proud to be a Mithra" kind of love, or maybe just a "Some of my best friends are Mithras, and I'm darn proud of it!" kind of love. Or, perhaps looking at it a little more literally, we were a "Pride of Mithra" (Pride being a group of lions in this case).

Since I was only ever on MithraPride, I don't know how other LS's decided who would join and who would not. In an MMORPG, it may seem a bit silly to only allow those of a specific race to join (Damn, NOW I sound like a racist!), but some, perhaps even many or most, people pick their race in an MMORPG because they feel some sort of connection with that race. Having an LS of a specific race can make forming friendships a lot easier.

I don't usually make new friends easily. In fact, the only friends I really have right now I've known since second grade! (I'm in college now). I've only just recently started opening up and forming new friendships, and it's all thanks to my colleges Anime Club. Having a common ground of being Otaku helped me to open up and make new friends, just as being a Mithra on an all Mithra LS helped me to open up on FFXI and form friendships.

Much of what I am saying appears like it could be taken greatly out of context, so I wonder if I should just shutup.

BTW, everything I know about the Boy Scouts I know from a friend of mine, since he was in it. His belief is, he doesn't care if he is camping with a bunch of homosexuals; if they are good friends, then why should their personal habits matter? He doesn't care that the Boy Scouts don't want homosexuals to join; they are a private organization, and they have that right. He DOES however care when the Federal government tries to stick its nose into the business of a private organization and tell them how they can operate.

Syine · Post by **Syine** » Tue Oct 21, 2003 12:33 am

Of course, the difference here is that nobody ever said we don't have a right to set our membership criteria, or threatened government intervention. I know, as much as Ancalagon would like to join, he and most others do respect our right to choose our membership criteria. He might be disappointed by it and wish we would choose something to allow him to join, but failing that, I seriously doubt anyone is going to deny MithraPride's right to exist as it does.

It's probably true a number of others may resent our choices or disagree with the limits we've set. I wish it were not so...I hate to be thought of as an elitist jerk just because I think an all-Mithra LS is neat. Perhaps people misread MithraPride as MithrasAreTooGoodToAssociateWithTheLikesOfYou.

Maybe we need a better PR person, to prove to the world that we're not standoffish, and that our membership rules are a mere formality...that we really do like everyone, of every race. I dunno, fraternal organizations do things like charity work and stuff to do good for the community and improve their image among non-members. Tigara did do that massive silversmithing event, though it didn't work out quite as well as planned, and few even knew it happened. Maybe we can figure out how to do something like that more often.

Ishe · Post by **Ishe** » Tue Oct 21, 2003 3:07 am

I think Syine and Golddess nailed it right on the head. It may be slightly elitist of us to have a membership requirement, but we do not act unjustly towards other player races, sexes, or anything like that. As Golddess pointed out (and no, your post did not come off as homophobic or negative in any way), our LS is much like a private organization, and we should be free to make any decisions we want about who joins and who doesn't. We are probably one of the most civil of such linkshells because our criteria is objective and simple; if you're a mithra, great. If not, make a mithra character. If we were to allow people in based on morals or personality, that would be extremely unfair, as we would be making a judgement on a person and deciding who's "cool" and who isn't.

Another way to think of it is this: lots of big corperations have very high standards for who they hire into their company. If they accepted every application they received, half the business would be professional, competent hard workers, while the other half would be idiotic loudmouthed slobs. Now take a look back at the beta LS. How many members did it have? Well over 50, if my memory is correct. And that was all mithra. Imagine how much that number will balloon when retail hits. How many mithra will we have after a few months? 100? 150? Over 200? Who knows. But imagine if we let EVERYONE join mithrapride, no matter what race, sex, or nationality their character belonged to. I can't even fathom how much spam a LS like that would produce. It would hinder my enjoyment of the game because there would constantly be messages from hundreds of members flooding and scrolling across my screen.

I hate to say it, but having rules and restrictions may hurt some people's feelings, but in the long run it might just keep this LS fun and enjoyable for all of us.

Swipe · Post by **Swipe** » Tue Oct 21, 2003 7:25 am

Ishe wrote: I hate to say it, but having rules and restrictions may hurt some people's feelings, but in the long run it might just keep this LS fun and enjoyable for all of us.

Bingo; but, the beta tester MP users are (potentially) just as much a part of the new ls that will be made, as they were of the old ls. how many old ls users are not going to be mithra this time anyway? does anyone have an actual head-count of those who will be even returning to the ls in retail? I know I don't.

A suggestion.. if the number of non-mithra vetrans for retail is say... < 25.. perhaps stetch it a little to accomodate maybe 35 non-mithra users max? then let them in.. they will continue to add to the mithra pride. If the number of non-mithra vetrans for retial is say... > 50 users.. then perhaps quietly offer a select few favorites a pearl... as long as they meet a criteria.. such as good PR and HR skills, and the like.

Albeit I have really no say in this matter anyway.. as in beta I was a popular mithra.. with at one time, 6 link pearls (got rid of a few because It became a hassle.) and ended up keeping 3.. so I alternated between MithraPride, SavannasSuperstars, and WindurstAlliance. something I picked up from all three of these shells..

Superstars had the best PR, (it seemed to me all ss members really were superstars.. raising people without condeming them for bringing them so far off the path they were on, as an example.)

MithraPride had the most fun and second-best source for reliable info about, and within the game. MP also had the best intergrated group of ideas and conversation-generating statements.

WindurstAlliance offered the best & most fun parties, and the most help within the game, and about the game.

It can also be noted.. that these three linkshells.. were also the 3 most sought after pearls in cactaur. I know. I got asked for pearls - a lot - when I was in any of these three shells.

So, in order to make MithraPride THE most sought-after pearl, we need to meet these three fairly simple needs. The vetran non-mithras are already familiar with the game, and will be a lot of help to the new gamers because of it. Why shoo them away because of their race? It would be like cutting off your right arm when you need it most.

Also, the new mithra chars will follow the example given to them. If we are civil, helpful, and fun.. they will adapt to also portray these qualities.. therby globally improving the popularity, and how people view the ls.

So.. instead of focusing so much on the race relations for vetran members.. why not focus on the target audience?

Just something that crossed my mind while reading these posts

-Swipe

Post by **Amiricle** » Tue Oct 21, 2003 8:34 am

Heh I love that Veiwpoint Swipe. Very nice.

Jeniphel · Post by **Jeniphel** » Tue Oct 21, 2003 7:02 pm

Never quite thought of it thata way Swipe.....

Good arguement I must say.

Ishe · Post by **Ishe** » Tue Oct 21, 2003 11:08 pm

I think you're absolutely right, Swipe. But I don't think the issue of veteran race is really much of an issue anymore. We all seem to believe the veterans, no matter what race they decide to choose for retail, will be welcomed with open arms in the new shell(s?) we create for retail.

As far as being a popular linkshell, I've only belonged to MP, so I haven't had the chance to see how other LS operate. I think your broad experience with those groups could help us in thinking of bigger, better, and of course funner LS get-togethers. After all, I can only remember two events that involved more than a handful of MP members, those being the smithing event in Bastok and the final group photos outside Windurst. I'd love to help organize and participate in events like that when retail hits. I think they're a lot of fun and bring all the members of the shell closer.

On a totally unrelated note (just popped into my head so I thought I'd type it), does anyone know how much Link Pearls and World Passes cost? Do they vary by server/nation? I remember hearing somewhere that pearls were somewhere in the thousands range (6-10), but I'm not sure how reliable that info was.

Post by **Mystiana** » Tue Oct 21, 2003 11:56 pm

I know the linkshell pearl costs 8000 gil.
When I bought a WorldPass in beta, it was 116 gil. I think this varies by how full the server is.

Post by **Toralynn** » Wed Oct 22, 2003 5:04 am

I'm stuck in between.. I, like Ishe, don't want to lose any of the mithra pride's beta members, but I also liked the whole idea of mithra pride being mithra only, thus the name.. If those in retail have nothing against this, though I expect much explaining may be necessary, I say allow beta mithrapride members in whether they choose to be mithran or not.. but I would say limit it to only those in the beta.. if it becomes too much of a hassle we could always just do the two LS thing, and see how it turns out...like I said though, I'm stuck in the middle..

Post by **Cyndari** » Wed Oct 22, 2003 5:38 am

Ishe wrote:I think you're absolutely right, Swipe. But I don't think the issue of veteran race is really much of an issue anymore. We all seem to believe the veterans, no matter what race they decide to choose for retail, will be welcomed with open arms in the new shell(s?) we create for retail.

I would definitely agree to that if that was our stance.

MithraPride

Allow Non-Mithra Former Members?

Should non-Mithra former LS members be allowed on the new MithraPride LS?

Allow Non-Mithra Former Members?

No hard feelings.

lol

understanding...