Upcoming Version Update July 2005 [Full List]

[Karou Ariyen]

but wouldnt that mean war/nin the only other tank i can think of w/ /nin becomes a DD? If i understand that right that means war tanks depending on subjob, so /nin is DD and the rest end up tank. however, it shouldnt matter for me, if I DD which i always do, enmity boosts dont mean jack to me cuz theres a PLD there or its a war/nin war/nin or war/nin nin/war dual blink....

thats a good point though

[Josiejo]

RDM/BLM would do a NIN's enfeebling job better, and could Refresh mages/PLD.

[Karou Ariyen]

ah so tell me rdm/blm, you always have them in every exp party then correct? the point of the matter is Ninja was NEVER designed to be a tank, you can even ask SE that. Ninja became a tank becuase parties got desperate and started using them as tanks. Dont believe me? well i can't make you believe me and i wont, but ill jsut say that and leave it there.

rdms are not abundant. SOmetimes when you do get an rdm, they dont always do their job right, sometimes the nin fugs up. or the warrior fugs up. NO JOB has perfect players, but stereotyped jobs are just wrong.

[Kahvi]

So... If i decide to go RDM/WAR I'll get asked to tank since NIN aren't supposed to tank? @_@

[Kailea]

I think they were trying to remove the reliance of NIN sub for tanks.

see this is what SE was doing, look at how much people rely on NIN and RNG now adays, way to frign much -.-

[Josiejo]

Hehe... Karou, settle down, geez. Sure, NIN was never meant to tank, I get that. But they are an effective tank at the moment. Removal of that trait in the upcoming patch is going to put NIN... where? Probably right where DRG is... seeking. I'm sorry if that offends you, but from what I've seen in parties, NIN are only average at best for DD. A lot of them need Utsusemi + Provoke to maintain an enemy's attention. That means they're being outdamaged by other party members, which is only acceptable when NINs are not tanking. However, there are better DDs, unfortunately, and RDM/BLM is not that uncommon. I do think Ninjutsu is an asset to any group, but I don't know if it's enough to make NINs preferrable over other DDs, which is all I'm trying to say.

[Shirai]

So... If i decide to go RDM/WAR I'll get asked to tank since NIN aren't supposed to tank? @_@

Don't be surprised when I say yes,
Due to the Buffing and debuffing Capabilities RDM can be a great tank indeed at the higher levels.
Another posibility is RDM/NIN.

Not during exp sessions of course, but when it comes to missions and stuff, yes they can and they are good at it!!

(I had an RDM/WAR tank during the Ifrit Prime and Titan Prime fights.)

To come back on the changes and the ongoing discussion about nin tanks.
I agree that SE never intended ninjas to be tanks.

However, the creativity has lead players to make hem tanks.
Problem right now is, when someone sees a ninja they think by themselves: TANK!!

My thought on the comming update is not to make the Ninja a less tank.
It depends on the player, I think ninja will be just a good a tank as it was when done correctly.

But people forgot that a ninja can be much more then just another tank like most people see the job right now.

Ninjas can be:
Tanks (Utsusemi and their ability to evade attacks)
Nukers (Elemental Ninjutsu)
Enfeeblers (Hyoton, Kurayami,etc..)
Semi-DDs (Dual wielding, Excelent skillchainable due to excelent TP gainage)

I think this update is not something to make a nin tank worse but to unlock the potential of the ninja's other posibilities then just taking hits.

Think about it.

[Prrsha]

Hehe... Karou, settle down, geez. Sure, NIN was never meant to tank, I get that. But they are an effective tank at the moment. Removal of that trait in the upcoming patch is going to put NIN... where? Probably right where DRG is... seeking. I'm sorry if that offends you, but from what I've seen in parties, NIN are only average at best for DD. A lot of them need Utsusemi + Provoke to maintain an enemy's attention. That means they're being outdamaged by other party members, which is only acceptable when NINs are not tanking. However, there are better DDs, unfortunately, and RDM/BLM is not that uncommon. I do think Ninjutsu is an asset to any group, but I don't know if it's enough to make NINs preferrable over other DDs, which is all I'm trying to say.

I think NIN mains will still be able to tank with the eminty gear plus use of elemental spells. But it is hard to say without seeing how much utsusemi effects hate in the patch.

[Alya Mizar (Tsybil)]

So... If i decide to go RDM/WAR I'll get asked to tank since NIN aren't supposed to tank? @_@

Actually, The RDM/WAR is a good tank. Blink, Stoneskin, Phalanx, Provoke, Cures, Nukes. Here is a tank who can afford to use Beserk instead of Defender. Oh, I forgot, mages are just not supposed to /melee jobs and fight. As they say on other boards, "Its Red MAGE."

IMHO, the job of the tank is to hold hate. I can only remember two parties with NIN tanks where the mob never got away from the tanks. One of those had two NINs tag team tanking. Each and every time the Mob whacks on someone other than the tank, it costs MPs and therefore slows the party down.

As a RDM, I like NIN tanks, I don't have to Refresh them, I draw little hate compared to the WHM and BLM, and when I do, I wear better armor than the other mages. I see little difference in MP usage with either the average NIN or the average PLD tanking. With a GOOD NIN, there is a big difference.

Personally, I hope to see WAR/MNK tanks at levels higher than 30 now. When my Mithra SAM/RNG was climbing to 30 as WAR/MNK, she could keep the mob just glued to her.

The big problem is not what the jobs can do, it is what people see them as good for. There are many examples of this cookie cutter mentality, but my current favorite is "SAM/RNG is only good after Barage comes in, till then its kind of a gheto RNG/NIN". Yeah rrright. I find Sharpshot to be almost a second Meditate, and no one gains TP faster.

Heck, my last b/f, a high level Taru WHM, used to tank in his 60's and 70's. This is not accidental tanking, this is WHM Tank. I only wish I was big enough to watch.

[Josiejo]

Wow... how does a WHM tank? Stoneskin doesn't last that long, and the cast time is insane. Even trying to Blink yourself before Stoneskin runs out is difficult, just because you're guessing when Stoneskin will disappear. If you're wrong, you either lose it too soon and interrupts Blink, or you have Blink on top of Stoneskin which defeats the purpose. (Stoneskin does not refresh on top of itself, so you have to kill the effect manually to recast in that situation.) Auto-Regen is nice, but only 3HP per tick. I'm interested to hear more... I'd like to see this in action as well! O.o

[Batsu]

The game needed this, all those elitist NIN and RNGs deserve this huge slap to the face after mocking the other jobs and rubbing their so called "superiority" in others faces.

[JediKitsune]

After looking at some posts on other boards, I've come to believe that this *sigh* makes NIN MORE or a tank than less. You lose hate when you get hit, right? Well... now NIN loses hate when a shadow dissapears, so it's like being hit. The good, smart NINs now are going to try and stock up on evasion gear as well as enmity gear to make sure they don't keep losing shadows.

The good NIN tanks will still be able to tank well, but the crappy NIN tanks are going to get their asses handed to them.

[Tivia]

Wow... how does a WHM tank? Stoneskin doesn't last that long, and the cast time is insane. Even trying to Blink yourself before Stoneskin runs out is difficult, just because you're guessing when Stoneskin will disappear. If you're wrong, you either lose it too soon and interrupts Blink, or you have Blink on top of Stoneskin which defeats the purpose. (Stoneskin does not refresh on top of itself, so you have to kill the effect manually to recast in that situation.) Auto-Regen is nice, but only 3HP per tick. I'm interested to hear more... I'd like to see this in action as well! O.o

Its actually not as hard as people make it, however you are correct in assuming Timing is key. I have tanked in a pinch, I cant say I like it but I can do it.

Firstly having a high level melee class that gets hit often thus keeping my defensive skills maxed helps ALOT..ie I was a monk and mostly soloed. Also having ones shield skills maxed makes a difference. now outside of this,

any +eva gear you can get, or +agi if you cant get +eva.

You need to hotkey and know the Timing of Stoneskin and Blink Really Really Well. I have alternated them numerous times to great effect, and of course lastly the highest regen spell you have.

Again I do not recommend tanking as a whm, but It can be done with preperation and when necessary.

[Dukuji]

Hmmm … a few people have asked me my feelings over SE’s new announcement regarding Utsusemi; since this change will fall in the forefront my profession. The following are my thoughts and opinions coming from a level 55 Ninja Cat.

*************************************************************

With one sentence SE set the Ninja world on fire.

In the next update, the player's enmity will decrease when a shadow image created by Utsusemi is absorbed by an attack.

I find it funny when they called it “shadow image” because when I cast it tells me I have “copy image” and when I look at the icon in my status bar it’s called “copy image”. A small technicality but nevertheless still very funny to me.

Since yesterday morning my mind has been trying to comprehend what in the Sam hell is going through SE’s mind. Just 20 words, yet I do not doubt that a million words have been written about it already. When the announcement came on June 28th concerning the bundling of ninja tools, I knew that sh!t was coming down the pipe. Ninja have been lucky and have been able to avoid updates and patches that directly affect us in a great way. It was only a matter of time.

To be honest and in my opinion, I don’t think SE had any set role for ninja. I think they gave them many things to make them versatile yet always useful. And after creating the job, they set them free into the world to discover what they may. They gave them a spell type that can deal elemental damage and altered the elemental status of an enemy. They gave them their own spells to paralyze, poison, blind, and slow. They gave them a unique weapon type that to this day only ninja can use. They gave access to many types of armor and weapons. They gave them the highest skill in throwing and made shuriken for their private use. To the mithran ninja they gave them sexy armor to wear that fit tight around their already attractive legs; thus making them even more sexy then once thought possible. But of all the gifts given to the ninja, they gave a spell that had been introduced in FF a few times before, a spell that would become the single most defining and sought after ability. Utsusemi.

I liken ninja to the Númenoreans of J. R. R. Tolkien's Akallabêth. The Númenoreans were a group of people who were given many things by the gods; including their own country to rule and power over their enemies. They were also extremely skilled and talented to the point where other peoples looked to them for knowledge. The gods blessed them and because of it their power and reputation was very strong. But like all power given, corruption set in and they abused what had been given. They invaded other lands and ruled them as tyrants and even desired immortality. Before long their crimes reached the ears of the gods and the greater part of Númenoreans where destroyed and with them their grand legacy.

Like the Númenoreans, ninja have been given some very unique talents; talents that other jobs seek after and beg them for. But I think the Ninja have gone too far. Utsusemi has not only blinded the ninja but all those who party with them and seek them. It’s being abused, SE has seen this and they have determined that enough is enough. Utsusemi is just too much and will be modified.

To what degree they'll do this, I have no idea. I do not know if I’ll still be a tank in the upcoming weeks or making a party role change. I do not know whether SE wants ninja to tank still or if they want them to do other things. I do not know what the outcome will be. But balance in game mechanics is the motivating factor; without a doubt. This became obvious to me when lazy ninja could quickly rise up the levels without having to buy anything more then a few stacks of shihei. So, a change is needed. The sword of Damocles has been hovering above our heads for too long and I think the horse hair holding the sword up has finally snapped.

Whether they say it or not, the paladins welcome this change with victorious applaud and I don’t blame them. This will put them in the forefront of tanking. I have no animosity towards paladins or what they do. Nor will I ever; for I do not consider myself a superior tank only a job that can tank.

However painful this update will be, in the end, I do feel it is needed. If I were to guess how it’s going to work I’d say that the amount of enmity loss will be based on your ninjutsu skill level. The higher the skill the less the loss.

My friend Ajana said it best, “Ninja buy their job.” I refuted this at first but now it is clear as day to me. Although a great ninja requires lots of skill and are phenomenal to watch tank, a lousy ninja can still get the job done about the same as any other normal tank. Since there are so few tanks to be found, some xp in a night is better then no xp. The price of all enmity and evasion gear has skyrocketed overnight in my world of Alexander by as much as six times. Now more then ever I fear that ninja will have just have to reach a little deeper in their pockets for the right to tank. Ninja tanks will not go away. I do not see anymore new jobs coming to fill the gap ninja may possibly leave behind so parties will still invite them knowing the xp will be a little slower (beats 6 hours in Jeuno looking for a tank). The difference between a great ninja and lousy ninja largely comes down to gear sometimes and I fear this update will make that more pronounced then ever. Not only in gear but in the amount of tools needed per fight. The days of 3-4k (this is what I pay on average per fight) a fight are over. I fear it will cost around 5-6k per fight now for a ninja.

Well, just my thoughts on the matter.

*************************************************************

I now wish to comment on a few things stated in this forum.

But they are an effective tank at the moment. Removal of that trait in the upcoming patch is going to put NIN... where?

Right behind the Dragoons in the unemployment line.

NIN are only average at best for DD. I do think Ninjutsu is an asset to any group, but I don't know if it's enough to make NINs preferrable over other DDs

First of all I do not believe SE is going to shut ninja down completely as job that can tank. I'm more inclined to say that this is to make it a little more difficult for parties to gain xp so fast. No free ride for you! It is true though, Ninja can DD but most PTs are about the "The Best" so they'll take another job over ninja as a DD. (Now once Ninja get Dual Wield IV at 65 they can do some impressive damage but generally speaking, no, you don't get a ninja to DD.)

There are other roles a ninja can do but for the most part another job can do it better and always cheeper. This is another matter though.

Enfeeblers (Hyoton, Kurayami,etc..)

Hehehe, Hyoton is an elemental ninjutsu. It "inflicts ice damage and lowers fire resistence on an enemy." I think you meant to say Hojo which slows an enemy down. But, don't worry, those ninjutsu spells are easy to get mixed up so no worries. (Now if you were a ninja ... )

You lose hate when you get hit, right? Well... now NIN loses hate when a shadow dissapears, so it's like being hit.

Well, one small problem here. Ninja do not have any abilities that "spike" hate like a Paladin has. We slowly build hate throughout the battle and avoid taking hits to retain that hate. If we are losing hate with every shadow being removed we only have Provoke to get the mob back quickly. The elmental wheel and our enfeebes are only there to help build this hate. They are not hate spikes. So, with hate constantly being drained from us we cannot rely on our collected "hate pool" to bring the mob back. Does that make sense?

The game needed this, all those elitist NIN and RNGs deserve this huge slap to the face after mocking the other jobs and rubbing their so called "superiority" in others faces.

Batsu, you always make me laugh. I agree with your words. As my grandfather often says, "Well don't they think they're the bee's knees." Life is about to get difficult for both NINs and RNGs (or so I'm guessing).

I think they were trying to remove the reliance of NIN sub for tanks.

I think NIN mains will still be able to tank with the eminty gear plus use of elemental spells. But it is hard to say without seeing how much utsusemi effects hate in the patch.

I think you hit it right on head. Not only that but predicted the future for what it's going to cost to be a decent Ninja tank.

*************************************************************

Well, thanks for listening to me ramble on.

[JediKitsune]

For keeping hate, have you ever tried throwing weapons? Maybe guns for big hate spikes with damage? Maybe guns would be a bit cheaper actually..

[Shirai]

Enfeeblers (Hyoton, Kurayami,etc..)

Hehehe, Hyoton is an elemental ninjutsu. It "inflicts ice damage and lowers fire resistence on an enemy." I think you meant to say Hojo which slows an enemy down. But, don't worry, those ninjutsu spells are easy to get mixed up so no worries. (Now if you were a ninja ... )

Yah you're right.
But anyhow, I'm not a ninja (yet).

[Crispleaf]

As SE said, "These adjustments will give players more freedom when choosing where to battle." ... The picture for this update is kind of funny. It shows a bunch of goblins moving in a line as if they are invading (or fleeing?) an area that looks like Buburimu.

I think that's Bibiki Bay. Having leveled there with white mage, it could certainly use a little expanding. Certain level ranges of goblins and dhalmels are in such short supply, they can only support one experience points party at a time.

[Crispleaf]

Wow... how does a WHM tank? Stoneskin doesn't last that long, and the cast time is insane. Even trying to Blink yourself before Stoneskin runs out is difficult, just because you're guessing when Stoneskin will disappear. If you're wrong, you either lose it too soon and interrupts Blink, or you have Blink on top of Stoneskin which defeats the purpose. (Stoneskin does not refresh on top of itself, so you have to kill the effect manually to recast in that situation.) Auto-Regen is nice, but only 3HP per tick. I'm interested to hear more... I'd like to see this in action as well! O.o

As insane as it might sound, I have tanked as a white mage, but only in special cases like tanking Dark Spark for someone's AF.

Flash is key to white mage tanking because not only does it act as a Provoke, but it blinds the enemy just long enough for you to cast Stoneskin. And Flash has a half second casting time, so you'll have no problem using it. As long as your Stoneskin holds up between Flashes, you can tank just fine.

While you have Stoneskin on, your spell casting won't be interupted by hits (unless you get stunned or silenced by them, of course). So you should be fine if you need to use Regen or some other spell with a long cast time.

If you're subbing black mage, I highly recommend Ice Spikes for the bonus damage, extra hate, and the occasional free Paralyze it causes. Subbing Red Mage for Phalanx and En-spells helps too.

[Crispleaf]

/em gets up on her soap box.

NINJA! TODAY IS DAY YOU WILL NEVER FORGET!
The unemployment line is to the left but please, no cutting in front of the dragoons.



Added the new info with a heavy heavy heavy heart. Today is a black day for my profession.

Edit: Fixed a small spelling error.

Well, the good news is, pullers and rangers who sub ninja will be pleased that Utsusemi will help even more with unwanted hate.

I could see how this would be a cause for concern with actual Ninja, though. I agree with Kuji that this will mean ninja will have to spend even more gil to hold hate, either through better gear or through more ninja items thrown at the monster.

I think this is too bad because I find the hardest person to get for a pick-up party these days is a tank. They should consider adding a new tanking job of some kind, in my opinion.

[Josiejo]

While you have Stoneskin on, your spell casting won't be interupted by hits (unless you get stunned or silenced by them, of course). So you should be fine if you need to use Regen or some other spell with a long cast time.

Critical hits also will interrupt you even with Stoneskin and Aquaveil, but of course, there is less chance of being interrupted with them than without.

You'll also need a RDM main to Refresh you or carry lots of Hi-Ethers/MP drinks, because this kind of tanking sounds like it burns up MP like a firecracker in a dry wheat field.

As for NIN tanking with Enmity+ gear, has anyone bothered to point out that this gear is not available until fairly high levels? Sure, NIN tanks that high and rich may still exist, but I live in the Land of Average, where most of my parties range from 10-30, and NINs will be lucky to have someone to tag along with. Makes me think I should start leveling my NIN now...

[Aony]

personally, I'd say dont make such a big deal out of it until we know the extent of the damage. If we know the amount of hate lost by a shadow hit is enough to ruin NIN tanks, sure let this continute. But honestly, SE wouldn't do that, you wont lose as much hate as some of you are making it out to be. For all we know you lose so little hate you can get it back with one strike. So once the update comes out, we'll see what has happened. If you lose alot, Dukuji's right, NINs will adapt to whatever is next for them. But most likely, you dont lose too much, and things will cool down over time and NINs will be only slightly worse tanks as they used to, just enough so those lazy ones you're talking about will be exposed and treated just like every other crappy tank.

This doesnt have anything to do with the topic, but to clarify something, a pet peeve of mine that I've seen brought up quite a few times here...examples:

The unemployment line is to the left but please, no cutting in front of the dragoons.

Wow... DRGs might actually get parties again.

Removal of that trait in the upcoming patch is going to put NIN... where? Probably right where DRG is... seeking.

Right behind the Dragoons in the unemployment line.

Why y'all bustin on the dragoons? In fact, why does just about everyone (who isn't one) thinks they totally suck. I mean think about it: when you're looking to see how much damage someone does, you look for what damage they do when they hit. But there's the key problem: nobody looks at what the wyvern is doing! If you count the wyvern a good dragoon can easily do more damage than most dark knights.

Thank you for your time.

[Alya Mizar (Tsybil)]

For keeping hate, have you ever tried throwing weapons? Maybe guns for big hate spikes with damage? Maybe guns would be a bit cheaper actually..

Oh the Guns are cheap enough, the expense is in the ammo.

I think this is too bad because I find the hardest person to get for a pick-up party these days is a tank. They should consider adding a new tanking job of some kind, in my opinion.

We have MANY jobs who can tank. Far more then the standard selection of PLD, NIN/WAR, WAR/NIN, or WAR/MNK. But the cookie cutter mentality prevents the others from even trying. That said, I never want to have to heal a DRK/WAR tank again.

Remember when they changed the rules on AoE attacks so they stripped ALL shadows. Similar predictions about the demise of NIN tanks were made then too.

[Janeth]

Here are some of my opinions: (and one of my brother's)

Crispleaf wrote:

I find the hardest person to get for a pick-up party these days is a tank.

I disagree with this...Every time I'm putting a party together, I find lots of tanks and not enough mages. I suppose it could be that there are not enough tanks on your server, and too many on mine.

Tivia wrote:

This healer is not rejoicing...
I hate..I mean I hate having anything but a NIN as tank..PLD and WAR are so horribly inefficient..I never had trouble with aggro with NIN tank..

Some healers like NIN tanks because they have to heal less, so the healer can conserve MP...I disagree. I have leveled WHM and SMN, and have even been main-healer as RDM many times. I find that I often do not have to heal less with NIN tanks, and if I did have to heal less, that would be worse! You see, I dislike being a lazy WHM. (However, for some reason, I do like being a lazy SMN.) Non-ninja tanks do not require the healer to use more MP. I have personally been main healer as RDM/THF, with non-nin tank, and still had enough MP. And as for trouble with aggro...I have little opinion on this, except for that RDMs are a little better at dealing with unwanted aggro than WHMs. And I always melee as RDM. Always.

Tsybil wrote:

I never want to have to heal a DRK/WAR tank again.

My brother says he tanked as DRK/WAR once...according to him, it worked just fine. This does not necessarily represent my opinions, rather my brother's, if you disagree with this, talk to him, not me.

Aony wrote:

Dukuji wrote:
The unemployment line is to the left, but please, no cutting in front of the dragoons.

Josiejo wrote:
Wow...DRGs might actually get parties again.

Josiejo wrote:
Removal of that trait in the upcoming patch is going to put NIN... where? Probably right where DRG is... seeking.

Dekuji wrote:
Right behind the Dragoons in the unemployment line.

Why y'all bustin on the dragoons? In fact, why does just about everyone (who isn't one) thinks they totally suck.

I agree...I am not a dragoon (yet) and I don't think they suck. Let's all please stop dissing the dragoons.

P.S. I finally figured out how to quote, as you can see. ^^ However, I still don't know how to quote someone who's quoting someone else. Can anyone tell me?

[Dukuji]

Why y'all bustin on the dragoons?

Those were never meant to be taken seriously. They were all sarcasic in nature. Anybody that knows me can testify. I feel it's a terrible thing that rumors have plagued that job and because of this update I fear the same misconceptions will be placed on the ninja as it has so unrightfully been placed on the dragoon. I think you you need a little inside information. First of all my dear sister is a dragoon and when it comes to dragoons in general, I love them. I'd rather have a dragoon over a ranger or dark knight any day (even a blm). Because from a Ninja tank PoV they produce a wonderfull amount of damage (I've seen detailed summaries where the DRG out did the RNG) but unlike most jobs Dragoon's hate is split with their pet. This means that I have an easier time holding hate because their awesome damage is not on a single person. Not only that but dragoons have a way of quickly removing hate so that I can quickly do my job.

Trust me, we never meant to harm or offend Dragoons. If we did please forgive us. I know JJ (what I call Josiejo) was teasing too because she is a dragoon herself.

[Dukuji]

For keeping hate, have you ever tried throwing weapons? Maybe guns for big hate spikes with damage? Maybe guns would be a bit cheaper actually..

Okay, I am one of the few ninja out there that keep their throwing capped at every level. So, yes, I have thrown just about everything out there. Here is the problem, without ranger subbed and a ton of racc gear you'll miss, and by miss I mean you'll miss A LOT. With capped throwing I'm about 25% on shuriken actually hitting. (Consider that they cost 600 each to throw please.) And when they do hit they will not do much more damage then a few swings of your katana. It would be very hard to controll large amounts of hate by throwing. Way too unpredicable and not enough to getting anything to turn around.

Now as for guns the same problem exists. Let's say a RNG cracks off a sidewinder that is just out of this world. They get the hate and my provoke is not ready. What do you do? Okay, lets try my gun. First problem, guns are slow. Very slow. I need hate now! Not in ten more seconds. By the time it takes to fire a gun I could have 4-6 of my ninjutsu spells off each doing about 70 damage points. Second problem, like with the shuriken problem, unless I have RNG subbed, that bullet is hard put to hit that enemy. People's lives are on the line the last thing I need to do is put my faith in a weapon that might hit. I need results not a lottery. Third problem, ninja are rated C with guns. Better then not but nothing to brag about. Fourth problem, unless you have a higher level job that can use some sort of marksmenship weapon. You'll have to skill up using guns because ninja can not use any x-bows. (Not the fastest or productive way to level a weapon or trying to keep a weapon capped). Fifth problem, although we can use guns, a ninja's selection of guns aint' none to great. Now with all these things against me, lets say I hit! Huzzah, that 6+ second wait paid off. Do you honestly think that hit will cause enough damage to out do that ranger's helluva sidewinder? I think not. I would be better off spaming my ninjutsu (about 60-80 damage every 1.5 seconds). Or rush in there and start swinging away with my katana to build damage on my side. (Notice I did not say guns are too pricey. If a gun created the amount of hate as anyone of the PLD's fancy tricks I would quit typing here and buy one right away. If you already spend several thousand a fight what's a few hundred more per fight?)

In short throwing and guns are not a great way to controll large amounts of hate.

[Josiejo]

Hehe... I wasn't joking, 'Kuji. I was leveling DRG to sub with SAM, and though it was fun at times, at others I felt like there wasn't much for me to contribute except Jump, an occasional WS and Provoke to distract the mob so a NIN could Utsusemi without interruption. That is probably why I spent more time seeking as a DRG than any other melee job I've leveled in the Dunes so far. It may be stereotyping or generalizing, but it's only that way because the reality of FFXI and human nature to desire the best case scenario led to them. There are those who break the mold and invite people without the "perfect job setup" just because they want to help someone level, but my experience was pretty much if there wasn't anything else available, I'd be asked to join.

Anyway, even though I don't buy into cookie-cutter parties/job combos, I do still have something of a preference when looking for people to fill party holes, only because leveling takes less time when you have a good party. At any rate, I hope NIN doesn't fall into the "less desired" pigeonhole, for the sake of our sneaky kits.

[Kailea]

Well I do this....in my search comments


(sub)(job) WAR THF DRK WHM
(Food) Sushi
Can warp back to Jeuno and change sub

with this comment I seem to get better and mroe invites, and I also get more PTs that let me keep my subs like WHM and DRK, and yes both work well in PTs people just dont want to give the combos a shot.

[Alya Mizar (Tsybil)]

I never want to have to heal a DRK/WAR tank again.

My brother says he tanked as DRK/WAR once...according to him, it worked just fine. This does not necessarily represent my opinions, rather my brother's, if you disagree with this, talk to him, not me.

For your brother to read I don't have his adress after all.

My problem with the DRK/WAR is not that they cannot hold hate. Indeed, the DRK/WAR does a fine job of holding hate. The DRK is designed to be a major DD, at the expense of Defense. I have not measured it, but I am willing to bet the DRK will take more than twice the damage from a hit that a PLD would.

Did your brother use a Shield by any chance when he tanked as DRK? That is another part. There are few DRKs who carry a shield and a one handded weapon.

Put it all together, and you have verrry busy Main and back up Healers, mass MP usage, and slow turnaround between kills. When I last had the DRK/WAR tank, I was RDM and Back up Healer. Every other spell was a Cure to the tank. Each kill had a long rest afterward. Slow EXP with no deaths is far better than no EXP true, I will do this again if I have to, I just hope I neverrr have to again.

[Janeth]

Well, I showed this to my brother, and he said that he wasn't talking about holding hate, he meant he took the damage well...and he says he didn't have a shield, and the healers weren't really busy.
I'm not quite sure I believe him...maybe they had a power leveler or something.

[Dukuji]

Been away for a few days; added two more bits of information. One was on Ballista and the other on "experience acquisition".

Every update seems to tinker with ballista. Not a big fan myself; but for what it's worth.

As for the change in the experience point system, I think it will make leveling jobs from 1-10 or so a lot easier. The only downside comes from this saying: "The player will soon be able to earn experience from monsters of a slightly wider level range than previously possible." To me this says that the level difference to where a mob checks "too weak" will increase thus meaning that it will take an even higher level to be free of agro in many areas. Also, I think this will make soloing easier. But we shall see.

So far this update seems to be a doosey and in a way an initial preparatory update towards something big in the future (imo).