MithraPride

...so not getting started on the subject of the Catholic Church...

I have no problem if gays want to get married, because I really don't see how it affects me personally. If they're happy and they love each other, and they want all the benefits (and taxation) that comes with being married, so be it. Far be it from me to tell them if they're wrong.

Not allowing gays to get married almost seems to me as though we're treating them like second-class citizens.

"Gays should not be allowed to marry."

Substitute the word "Jew" or "woman" for gay -- I wonder if people's reactions would be different then.

-- Sarah

Well the topic seems to have derailed a little but I'm kewl with it. To the topic of gay unions... I really don't give a sh*t, just don't ask me to toss a bunch of flowers to the crowd. If you want to have a gay marriage go for it, you want to have a hedro marriage go for it . Here is the rub however, what they are asking for *they=gay marriage supporters* is an extra set of laws and rights. Let me set this up to try to explain my point.

I want to visit my sick mother in the hospital I can and so can they. Same rights.
I want to visit my best friend in the hospital I can and so can they. Same rights.
I want to visit my sick husband/wife I can and so can they if they are of OPPOSITE sexes. same rights.
If I want my best friends money after he dies I can have it....If he puts it in a WILL. So can they. Same rights.
If my husband's family objects to my wanting my husbands property after he dies and there is no WILL then there will be a lawsuit in that I would have to share the spoils of the results, so can they. Same rights.
If I want to get my best friend on my company insurance policy....I can't and Neither can they. Same rights.
If I want to visit a girl friend that I had a tryst with after visiting hours I can't and Neither can they. Same rights.

The way I see it is that they want a set of laws and rights that would ONLY apply to them for there benefit because of a choice they made that 97% of the rest of the country didn't.
If a state wants to put it to a vote then fine, if a city wants to put it to a vote fine, if the country wants to put it to a vote fine.
But on the other side of the argument .
What if the country had decided slavery should still be legal? What about women being able to vote. The root of this is that in both cases race and sex should have no sway in who was more equal.

But where ever the biggest noise or most money is where our heads will turn whether it's just or not. IE Scott Peterson, Enron, Microsoft, Greedy record companies. The United States is not and never will be a true democracy because if it was then the majority could vote that murder, cheating, listening to a song you didn't buy could be legal.

Don't like my take, give me yours. I have changed my views from hearing someone else's point more then once. Just some fodder to chew over.

To answer one of the last things first, you're right. America is not a democracy. The last true democracy I heard of was WWII Poland, and they never got anythign done. 100% democracy is all policy is decided based on entire population majority. No house, no sentate.

We are a Republic, we are goverend by a group of individuals picked from the populace (i.e, Electoral College). But to be more specific, we are a Representative Republic. That's a Republic with a dash of Democracy. We have a bit more public sway in our politics.

Aaaany ways...

"The way I see it is that they want a set of laws and rights that would ONLY apply to them for there benefit because of a choice they made that 97% of the rest of the country didn't. "

Really? From what I see, they want gender blind equality. Didn't you just say "The root of this is that in both cases race and sex should have no sway in who was more equal."

What is gender? A bit of flesh between the legs shapped differently. Testes/Ovaries pumping out different things. Estrogen/Testosterone balence. Innate sexual preference. Flash news report, all of these can be changed. Looking at it like this, denying Gay Marrige is only done because some are afraid of change...

I hate politics.

Me mother said I should'a been a lawyer. I argue too much though.

Kismet wrote:I want to visit my sick mother in the hospital I can and so can they. Same rights.
I want to visit my best friend in the hospital I can and so can they. Same rights.
I want to visit my sick husband/wife I can and so can they if they are of OPPOSITE sexes. same rights.
If I want my best friends money after he dies I can have it....If he puts it in a WILL. So can they. Same rights.
If my husband's family objects to my wanting my husbands property after he dies and there is no WILL then there will be a lawsuit in that I would have to share the spoils of the results, so can they. Same rights.
If I want to get my best friend on my company insurance policy....I can't and Neither can they. Same rights.
If I want to visit a girl friend that I had a tryst with after visiting hours I can't and Neither can they. Same rights.

I think you are missing the point. Why does your husband/wife have to be of the opposite sex for you to visit them in the hospital. Do heterosexual couples love each other more that homosexual couples? Is it not just as devastating for someone's gay lover to be sick in the hospital as their straight lover?

Take your example about company insurance policy, but replace best friend with life partner (gay or straight):

If I want to put my life partner on my company insurance policy, I can (I am straight and married btw), but a gay person cannot. Why?

Kismet wrote:What if the country had decided slavery should still be legal? What about women being able to vote. The root of this is that in both cases race and sex should have no sway in who was more equal.

At a point in our history, slavery was legal and women weren't allowed to vote. The root of this is that race, sex, and SEXUAL PREFERENCE should have no sway in who is more equal.

Edited for spelling errors

/clap

The root of this is that race, sex, and SEXUAL PREFERENCE should have no sway in who is more equal.

That might be true, but I'm still more equal than you.

-- Sarah

Kismet wrote:I want to visit my sick mother in the hospital I can and so can they. Same rights.
I want to visit my best friend in the hospital I can and so can they. Same rights.
I want to visit my sick husband/wife I can and so can they if they are of OPPOSITE sexes. same rights.
If I want my best friends money after he dies I can have it....If he puts it in a WILL. So can they. Same rights.
If my husband's family objects to my wanting my husbands property after he dies and there is no WILL then there will be a lawsuit in that I would have to share the spoils of the results, so can they. Same rights.
If I want to get my best friend on my company insurance policy....I can't and Neither can they. Same rights.
If I want to visit a girl friend that I had a tryst with after visiting hours I can't and Neither can they. Same rights.

If you change all the "and so can they"'s to "and they should be able to"'s (and doing similar things to the can'ts) it makes a lot more sense IMO.

But what I'm confused about is, what do you mean by an extra set of laws? I thought they were merely trying to get the current laws clarified.

Yes that was a poor choice on my part I should not have compared a man choosing to be gay with me choosing to beat someone. A better example would be a man choosing to be gay or choosing to be a chaste monk both are choices. Feelings are just feelings they do not govern us our minds govern us. As far as the separation of church and state don’t get me started on that. This nation was built on a Christian foundation and pulling that out from under our nation is what is causing us all the problems today.

Golddess wrote: But what I'm confused about is, what do you mean by an extra set of laws? I thought they were merely trying to get the current laws clarified.

Golddess there is legislation that has been brought before the US senate/H of R that would make it a hate crime for a preacher to stand up in the pulpit and say homosexuality was a sin. This is an example of an extra law that is wanted.

hmm sumthing to get mad at? well do i have to say more then exams and school? i hate tests

Nimonie wrote:

Golddess wrote: But what I'm confused about is, what do you mean by an extra set of laws? I thought they were merely trying to get the current laws clarified.

Golddess there is legislation that has been brought before the US senate/H of R that would make it a hate crime for a preacher to stand up in the pulpit and say homosexuality was a sin. This is an example of an extra law that is wanted.

{Hmmm.}
Question, what does the law say about people who stand up and say "I'm pro-white, all other races are inferior and must be terminated."?
(Given the fact that the KKK exists, the law probably has nothing against someone doing that, but I thought I'd ask anyway.)

Nimonie wrote:As far as the separation of church and state don’t get me started on that. This nation was built on a Christian foundation and pulling that out from under our nation is what is causing us all the problems today.

Personally I think the influence of the church is causing plenty of problems today in our country. And while the founding fathers of this country were Christians, they in fact were very explicit in the separation of the church and the state. Having been driven from a country where the church and state were not separate, they knew through experience that it would be a problem.

Golddess wrote:

Nimonie wrote:

Golddess wrote: But what I'm confused about is, what do you mean by an extra set of laws? I thought they were merely trying to get the current laws clarified.

Golddess there is legislation that has been brought before the US senate/H of R that would make it a hate crime for a preacher to stand up in the pulpit and say homosexuality was a sin. This is an example of an extra law that is wanted.

{Hmmm.}
Question, what does the law say about people who stand up and say "I'm pro-white, all other races are inferior and must be terminated."?
(Given the fact that the KKK exists, the law probably has nothing against someone doing that, but I thought I'd ask anyway.)

I believe the legislation would make it a crime if the preacher used his sermons to incite violence against gays. Just as it is illegal to use speech at a KKK rally to incitve violence against African Americans.

So the legislation would not be an "extra law," it would be a clarification of existing hate speech laws to include homosexuality as a protected group.

Yes it would add sexual orientation to the hate crimes list, but where does hate crime cross the lines of free speech. I mean a pastor standing on the street corner saying homosexuality is a sin and that you need to turn from that sin inorder to be saved could be thought of as a hate crime. for example here are a few links to look at with what can and does happen. http://headlines.agapepress.org/archive/10/132004a.asp
http://www.afa.net/clp/ReleaseDetail.asp?id=56
This one turned out ok but still he was arrested over it.
http://headlines.agapepress.org/archive/5/172004c.asp

If this kind of stuff is happening now what will be the future if it does get put into hate crimes legislation. I do know there are people that do commit crimes against homosexuals because they are homosexuals but just speaking out against it in public should not be considered a crime.

Hmmm, well when it comes to hate crimes, isn’t that based on race and gender? A person cannot choose their gender or race (they are born like that) but sexual preference is a choice. It's more about speaking out about a life style then it is against a race, isn't it?

Speaking out against BDSM wouldn't be considered a hate crime along those lines since it is a sexual preference. Why should homosexuality be any different?

Yea I aggree with you Prrsha its a choice and shouldnt be added to any hate crime legislation. I was just giveing an example of what is being attempted there have been several attempts to have sexual orientation to the hate crimes legislation.

What are we talking about again?

Fish?

MMMMM FISH

Sorry if I go back to the hate crimes subject, but to me, a hate crime is when someone attacks, or defames someone because of their race, gender, religion, or even sexual orientation. You attack them just because you don't like what they stand for or believe in, doesn't matter whether they choose to be like that or not. A preacher preaching about how homosexuality is wrong is not a hate crime in my eyes; it's just him doing what he believes in, he's not hurting anyone that is gay, he's just speaking up for what he believes in; actually hunting down and beating a homosexual would be a hate crime.

However for the non-choices (race and gender) a person speaking against, say, african-americans can be accused of a hate crime. Hate crimes should be assessed on a case by case basis.

Gays get to speak up for themselves, so what about the people who feel homosexuality is wrong, when they speak up for themselves it's considered a hate crime, speaking up for what you believe in, when you get to choose what that is (ie. religion, sexual preference), is perfectly fine. (My opinion on homosexuality: I don't think is wrong, do whatever you please, just don't go trying to force your beliefs on anyone else. Let people believe in what they want to believe in.)

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