Rng and Nin nerf opinions

[Ambrey]

This is a sopic for people to post their opinions about the recent Update regarding the Ranger and Ninja nerfs. As we all know this is a pretty hot subject as of late but I am curious as to what everyone's opinions are on it. Please when you post to control yourselves as this is a place for discussion and not an attempt to start a flame war. Let us be civilized about this and discuss it as adults and fellow players, not immature shouts matches between kids.

My personal opinion is from what I have seen most Ninjas are not having too much of a problem adjusting to the recent Utsusemi nerf.

However I myself am a Ranger and I have noticed a major change, also an inability to make good damage since the nerf. I am in agreement that the Ranger's needed to be adjusted but not in this way, this recent update was what I would call overkill.

The sole purpose for Rangers were they were built from the ground up to do damage, thats all they were good for really. I have been in parties lately where the Thiefs and Monks are majorly outdamaging me and even Barrage and my weapon skills cannot even come close to their damage.

I spend tons of gil on ammo and the best ranged weapons and also the best ranged accuracy gear I can get my hands on and since the nerf, I am not getting my gils worth. I have even seen many Rangers now being the last picked into parties. Many speak of Rangers as sitting along with Dragoons after the Penta Thrust nerf.

I believe that SE needs to adjust the nerf and not make it so severe, like I said before, I agree Ranger needed to be adjusted in some ways but the recent patch they did was overkill. That is my opinion, now I would like to hear yours.

Thanks everyone, happy adventuring in Vana Diel and Rangers keep your heads up. ^^

[JediKitsune]

The ninja 'nerf' doesn't seem to be much of a change at all. The JP NIN tank I partied with last night (who wasn't even high enough level to get Utsu:Ni) had no problem keeping shadows up, and I don't think that the mages or other similar people got hit by the mob except for gobbie bombs and such...

As for Rangers? Well, I do kinda think they were a little on the overpowered side. And the argument of "I pay way more money than I should for my equipment, so I should do the best damage." doesn't sit well with me. Every job pays what they have to for optimum effectiveness, Rangers just choose to pay a little more (than they should probably...).

The smart rangers have figured out the best positions for the best damage and such already, and apparently the highest damage is only a little lower than it was pre-patch. Apparently, the RNG/WAR is also starting to appear more often.

[Suhraa]

I didn't do much exp party since the update, just two with NIN, and as I am THF, I was here to help them keep the hate. It went just fine, and with my SATA and their NIN tools, they were able to keep hate all along even against DRK and BLM. For RNG, I cant say, I was about to lvl it to do Promy, but I think I will just stay as WAR/NIN with two axes to be a kind of DD/second tank and will invest in shade stuff instead of leveling RNG to 30. What I heard from close friends RNG is for example Slug Shot was doing 1200 pre-update and 600 after. So yeah, maybe a little overkill.

See u kitties !

[Jae]

Finally amazing kitties are here! no flaming! T_T

I'm ranger too Ambrey T_T
From my opinion.. not because Ranger is my job... but it is been nerfed very much;;; not because of ONLY the damage we are suppose to do.. Accuracy been also reduced... and Soloing NM or Farming is almost impossible since you have to sub war to compete with provoke... this reduces accuracy also.. when it is already reduced.. because we cannot dual equip. And about the Damage by distance.. I do agree rangers are suppose to do damage from range attacks but if we were to solo... to make money for our endless spending of arrows/bolts.. its quiet hard because monster does not stay still... -_-; we will be doing dmg which lv20 below would do.

Note: again... I only put up my opinion.. I havent said single thing about other jobs ~.~ topic is "opinion on ranger&ninja"

About Ninja... they been somewhat nerfed but You will hardly notice... I mean if it is been notice... SE released +Enmity gears(or swap gear everytime provoke) for nothing. Or at least get a thief in your party.

What I heard from close friends RNG is for example Slug Shot was doing 1200 pre-update and 600 after

what more can you say

[Thanatos02]

My opinion is pretty much public record, detailed pretty heavily on the prior thread discussion about the update. I'm not sure if I'm one of the ones Jae assumes is/was flaming, but that certainly wasn't my intention. I feel that one of the biggest problems DD's faced in this game was the concepts that any problem could be solved with enough Rangers.

All the other classes were pretty much inferiors in a party.

I'll sum up my thoughts here, though. It's important to note that everything I say is based on the numbers I've seen Rangers put down on boards such as Allakazham and my own reckoning of game theory so I'm not a Ranger myself. Furthermore, I have nothing but respect for good players - Rangers and otherwise, so I'm not exactly holding a beef.

Rangers had a lot going for them. Dmg from a distance negates AoE spells, fantastic damage that wasn't varied by level, nor did it put one close to the fight, fantastic efficiency that no other class could beat.

The Ranger paid for this success in gil. This is the primary excuse for Rangers being able to deal more Dmg then any other class, bar none. I, however, find this concept somewhat limited.

Any experianced crafter will tell you that time equals money, and any experianced partier will tell you that time equals experiance. Partys tend to measure exp by the hour. So, (X Exp) = (Y Time) = (Z Cash).

One of the big things a Rng has over a Blk or a Drk, for example, is that they don't cast spells. They don't use up MP. They don't ever have to kneel to do dmg. This saves Whm or Rdm MP, this saves time. Each second they don't have to kneel to regain MP, or force a healer to expend MP resources is a second spent fishing a mob. This adds up, especially in a long party situation.

The Rng is paying for those seconds in gil, but he is paying for those seconds before the fight ever starts. The Blk or Drk spending valueable party time, either in cures, refreshes, kneeling, or they end up spending their gil like the Rng investing in juices or au laits. Classes that do dmg over time or those that have secondary uses (Rng are narrowly focused) still don't stand up to Rng dmg potential.

Plus, Rng (especially Rng/Nin) don't have to worry about dmg unless something really goes wrong. Close-up DD's (especially Drg) have much to fear from suddenly shifting hate or AoE's.

Overall, I don't know how the dmg dropped, and how speed/effectiveness stacks up with other classes numerically after the change. However, I did see a need for a change. I think it's still far too early to condemn it, though. Rng are still playing with distance and gear to find the best mix. It's going to take more work, and Rng arn't going to do the same amount of dmg as before (what with dmg being variable against different leveled mobs), but I don't think it should. Rng were too good.

But they're still very good. So are Drg. It's hard to fight the collective urge to say that Square 'nerfed' the Rng, but it's not really true. To be nerfed is to be hit by the 'nerf' bat - to be made as effective as a foam weapon. Those arrows arn't foam yet. Shoot something with them.

[Jae]

Heres explanation based on Thanatos02 ^^; not flaiming just explaining your thoughts.

I'll sum up my thoughts here, though. It's important to note that everything I say is based on the numbers I've seen Rangers put down on boards such as Allakazham and my own reckoning of game theory so I'm not a Ranger myself. Furthermore, I have nothing but respect for good players - Rangers and otherwise, so I'm not exactly holding a beef.

Many of them are good ranger. Its just that you are not there to see the different the update it made. Will explain below... more ~.~

Rangers had a lot going for them. Dmg from a distance negates AoE spells, fantastic damage that wasn't varied by level, nor did it put one close to the fight, fantastic efficiency that no other class could beat.

Hmm.. Since when melees accuracy was determine by monsters lvl? Or even if it did... what makes you think that our accuracy wasnt??? Ranger's accuracy wasnt all that godly. We eat food.. sushi to bring up our accuracy. Not sure where you are coming from but if you were to compare lvling @ 50+ people(rangers) have nasty accuracy compare to their high delay range accuracy without food.

The Ranger paid for this success in gil. This is the primary excuse for Rangers being able to deal more Dmg then any other class, bar none. I, however, find this concept somewhat limited.

Any experianced crafter will tell you that time equals money, and any experianced partier will tell you that time equals experiance. Partys tend to measure exp by the hour. So, (X Exp) = (Y Time) = (Z Cash).

Are you telling us.. our money falls from sky? Our money is farmed took us a lot of time to support ourself. Again, We spend a lot of time to farm. Okie.... let say we can save our money.. from crafting. What about the time&money we skilling up the woodworking(16+ can be up to 70+ for demon/kabura arrow)& alchemy(50+ for holy water and bullets i think)?
I dont remember how much I spent my money from 1-50.. but I'm pretty sure after lv15... I had to buy stack of bolt for 4k.. after lv24 have to buy shihei now.. well basically as you lvl.. since you need more exp.. you need more arrows to burn... I remember I had to burn 500k+ per lvl above lv50+. Do you realize how much arrows we spend? Like I said are you a ranger to verify this?

One of the big things a Rng has over a Blk or a Drk, for example, is that they don't cast spells. They don't use up MP. They don't ever have to kneel to do dmg. This saves Whm or Rdm MP, this saves time. Each second they don't have to kneel to regain MP, or force a healer to expend MP resources is a second spent fishing a mob. This adds up, especially in a long party situation.

Again we pay for our dmg. I know every job do.. but its just that you sounded like youw know how much we are going through when you cannot verify it. You are assuming this statement on ranger only pt? Regular pt with SC+MB... BLM can take out 50% of enemie life.. meaning 1 SC + MB will kill the monster. Hmm.. now you tell rangers whining about how we used to do in party or about the dmg.. when YOU didnt know about these huh ~.~

The Rng is paying for those seconds in gil, but he is paying for those seconds before the fight ever starts. The Blk or Drk spending valueable party time, either in cures, refreshes, kneeling, or they end up spending their gil like the Rng investing in juices or au laits. Classes that do dmg over time or those that have secondary uses (Rng are narrowly focused) still don't stand up to Rng dmg potential.

Again this statement explains in previous explanation.

Plus, Rng (especially Rng/Nin) don't have to worry about dmg unless something really goes wrong. Close-up DD's (especially Drg) have much to fear from suddenly shifting hate or AoE's.

Well not sure how many mobs are out there actually do AoE that will destory all the party member. And Ranger only do this after the update. We were trying to be mannered and do the dmg what we are suppose to in party to save all of us in time before the patch. And about this Close-up thinging... I dont know why ranger have to carry melee weapons in first place(when SE have 20mil ranger axe in the current market.. dont flame me on this 1... i know there are other options.. but why do we need melee weapon?)? Since Ranger only gotta go range attack according to some of us.

Overall, I don't know how the dmg dropped, and how speed/effectiveness stacks up with other classes numerically after the change. However, I did see a need for a change. I think it's still far too early to condemn it, though. Rng are still playing with distance and gear to find the best mix. It's going to take more work, and Rng arn't going to do the same amount of dmg as before (what with dmg being variable against different leveled mobs), but I don't think it should. Rng were too good.

Again ~.~ You were never there to see the result. You cannot say this unless you are actually ranger. Like I said from my point of view. Other jobs can do damage what rangers can do. You are the 1 fail to see this and complain.

Please excuse for my 2nd language;;; if I didnt make any sense at all T_T I apologize. Just want to show people its not how they think. Just wanted to explain before they start posting about ranger. ^^;

[Kintrra]

I think the point Thanatos is trying to get a across is that now RNG have been knocked back down from their pedestal. Before they were Godlike in their ability to shoot anything and do the same amount of damage. It was great. But it was overpowered. People thought "This mob is too strong, I need more RNGs!" And that was the problem. It was leaving all the other DDs in a rut where they couldn't get parties. SE did what was best for the whole game, not necessarily just for the RNG. With the RNG now being mortally limited like the rest of us, it falls down to our level. Accuracy and damage are affected by the mob's level? Welcome to my world, I've been dealing with this idea with every axe and sword swing. Arrows cost money? Why yes, they do. I'm sorry they cost as much as they do sometimes, but I can't help that. I'm leveling RNG myself, right now. Granted, I'm a low level, and I can't solo an IT worm (I don't think, I can't find any, highest I've found is a T, and I soloed it) but I still can do pretty nice damage for my level I thought. Especially compared to the damage I would usually be taking for the damage I'm dealing. Accuracy is an issue, but a little bit of movement towards or from the mob seemed to fix that problem usually. So I have to say, I'm not completely impressed with the excuses most of the wannabe RNGs are putting out there. Some of them like yourselves are making decent points, but most of them just sit around (in Lower Jeuno on my server) whining via /shout as to how badly SE screwed them over, and their job as been nerfed, and I'll be honest, I've shouted back for them to quit whining and go out and actually learn their job. Which mind you, was usually met by more 'I hate SE for nerfing my job' complaints.

But yeah, just my input on that. Like I said, most of the good RNGs are putting forth either valid points, or not saying a damned good thing, but mostly I'm just hearing wannabe RNGs whining about it on my server.

[Kahvi]

In regards to the Ninja "Nerfing" this separates the good NIN/ and /NIN tanks from the bad ones. If you want to have a ninja tank, you cant "go cheap" and just use Utsusemi, you got to use the full range of ninjutsu to keep hate. Just like it was before the patch.

Before the patch, a bad nin tank could get by with just one or two justu. After the patch, Ive noticed that bad nin tanks cant hold hate. so this separates the good from the bad. so i kinda like it, even though i end up dying alot...

[Crispleaf]

I am in a static party with Dukuji, where Kuji is ninja and I'm on black mage. Naturally, as a damage dealer, if I get carried away, I can steal hate and "tank" for awhile.

In our party on Saturday, after the update, I'd noticed that I have to have a lot more restraint in the spells I cast. I can't casually throw damage spells throughout the fight anymore, and Kuji has to work a lot harder just to keep hate on her. We even have a hume thief in our static to help with hate too, and it's still a problem.

And Kuji's a good tank. The best there is. So, I won't have anyone questioning that maybe it's because she one of the "bad ninja" that's been separated from the "good".

It just means a change of strategy, that's all. Where people once scoffed at Ancient Magic, I think it has renewed importance. The smoothest fights were now the ones where we set up a skillchain and I finished the monster with a giant devastating spell, rather than chip away at it the whole fight.

That way, hate is managed more effectively, and I can still do the damage I was meant to do... just in a more timely fashion where the monster won't live long enough to hurt me for it

[Kahvi]

Sorry to hear that, but im stating "Bad" ninja as the ones that just use ustu and thats it vs "good" ninja that use all that they have at thier disposal.

I dont know how kuji falls in to either of those catagories. I'm stating that from my experience the good ninja use more than just ustu 1 or 2 and thats it.

I'm talking about this from a main healer aspect. I noticed the ones that use all thier tools are better than the ones that just use one or two types.

and if there were any misspellings in my earlier post, its because a 5 yr old hacked my e-brain.

[Alya Mizar (Tsybil)]

I did some testing with my SAM/RNG Mithra. She is RNG 20 now.

Working on worms in Korokola Tunnel (some mobs DO stand still ) I found the best damage with a Longbow came from medium range, but it was only 15% more. Crossbow had its best damage at short range, ~ 25 - 30% increase.

I did NOT try point blank range.

WHen she hits 22 I will try with a gun.

[Rinaah]

I agree in saying that Rng didn't get "nerfed". I will not say too much else though. Everyone just has to settle down or I will have to open up a cheese shop in Jeuno to go with all the whine.

Did Rng need to be limited? Yes
Do I think the reductions are fair? Yes
Do I think SE handled it well? No.. They may have just taken away too much too fast instead of taking it away over a set timeframe. Same things taken away, just the change could have been more gradual.

[Crispleaf]

Do I think SE handled it well? No.. They may have just taken away too much too fast instead of taking it away over a set timeframe. Same things taken away, just the change could have been more gradual.

I think doing it all at once was the only way to handle this. Taking one thing away a month, for example, would just drag out the whining and bickering far, far longer than it had to. Not only that, but rangers would have to readjust their playing style with each passing month, which would be frustrating to anyone.

Now that it's done, everyone can get the complaining out of their system and learn the new way to play ranger once and for all.

[Jae]

Ohhh... did ya know that Ranger Job Trait(lv70 i think) have Melee Accuracy?


EDITED:oh wait... theres even more

Precaution Ranger: 5
Single Less likely to be attacked by aggressive creatures.
Accuracy Up I Ranger: 10
Single Improves accuracy of physical attacks.
Rapid Shot Ranger: 15
Single Increased attack speed with ranged attacks.
Resist Poison I Ranger: 20
Single Increased Resistance to Poison.
Accuracy Up II Ranger: 30
Single Further improves accuracy of physical attacks.
Resist Poison II Ranger: 40
Single Increased Resistance to Poison.
Accuracy Up III Ranger: 50
Single Further improves accuracy of physical attacks.
Resist Poison III Ranger: 60
Single Increased Resistance to Poison.
Accuracy Up IV Ranger: 70
Single Further improves accuracy of physical attacks.

[Mrree]

The biggest drawback to RNG (even pre-'nerf') was the fact that RNG has a glass jaw. For many RNG (including myself) we saw this as the leveling factor between us and the other DD's. We needed range and restraint (or shadows, although I never subbed NIN for RNG even before the patch) or we'd get hammered flat. In return, everyone 'knew' we did jaw-dropping damage, especially with Skillchains. Really though, if you ran a parser, you found that a good DRG with some decent gear could match us on a per-hit basis. Skillchains were where RNG really shined. No one (even DRG) could touch us on a skillchain, and I know from personal experience cause I have DRG/THF/RNG all in the same range. Second only to SATAVB (and way more frequent) a RNG skillchain was something to be feared. Were we too powerful? That's hard to say really. Like I said, I did as much damage on a per hit basis with a Behouard lance and a good wyvern as I did with a battle bow +1. But then again 'everybody knew' RNG did mad damage and I never got tells when I was a DRG that were like: 'omg dude, can u join r pt? we have 2 rng and need another one! 10K/hour'.

As far as I am concerned, I would like to see some compensatory changes to make up for the complete lack of soloability that RNG has now. I mean WHM does better solo than RNG after level 35. I'd like to see some better armor come up, and be able to stack ammo higher than 99. I'd like to see ammo prices come down (although with the way people are leaving RNG that will likely self-correct). I'd like to see some way to find the sweet spot that isn't pure experimentation. I'd like to get some +VIT bonuses someplace so when the mob does come after me I can last longer than one hit. I'd like the delay on the bows and guns to decrease with XP so that I can get more than a single shot off when the mob is rushing me through the 'sweet spot' and into 'point blank'. Alternatively I'd like an 'Assassin' like ability where I can guarantee myself a single critical hit on a 5 minute timer. I want RNG to be a balanced job and so if they are going to reduce some things I'd like to see expansions in other directions.

The 'nerf' really isn't. With luck the people who level RNG now will be those who really want to do the job, as opposed to those who want to game the system for the biggest baddest job. I will still carry RNG to 75, even if SE never adds anything into the job to make it a little easier.

One last thought. All over Alla there are a lot of non-RNG DD's who are making cracks about how it's about time RNG got leveled out. These are the same DD's who never wanted to get a DRG in the party, or a MNK cause they weren't the key to mad XP. They were also the ones who continually whined about never getting parties on their own. I think it's because they were all caught up in the hype, the 'omg dude, we have 3 RNG! {Yes, please}'. "Everyone knew" (even though it wasn't true) that RNG killed everything that moved. The 'only way' to win Promyvion was with 2 SMN and 2 RNG. In short, these were the sheep who could never think out of the box, and couldn't adapt to making a party work with the people who wanted to play the game.

I was a bad-ass RNG before the patch. I'm a bad-ass RNG after the patch. I am a bad-ass DRG, a bad-ass MNK, and a bad-ass SAM. You know what the constant factor in all that is? Me. I am one bad-ass battle Mithra. I like the game, and I strive to play it well. When I party, I look for people who want to do the same. I have never had a bad time XPing, static or pickup, when the people who were involved knew their job and wanted to excel at it.

If you are on Leviathan and you are bad-ass? I want to party with you! Let's get some mad XP. ^_~

[Crispleaf]

I mean WHM does better solo than RNG after level 35.

Um... No

[Aony]

So far from what I've seen.

Ranger: yes, it has been knocked down somewhat. They've been knocked off from their demi-god position where they are the best DD in the game and you want as many as possible. Honestly, this is good, it gives everyone ELSE a chance. Plus like teh good ninja/bad ninja, a good ranger will find the best place for optimum damage over time, and still do a pretty good job at what he's supposed to do. A bad ranger however, will totally suck. It used to be any ol' ranger just stood back as to not get hit, and just spammed ranged attacks. Does incredible damage, and a monkey could do it. Now it actually takes skill to be a ranger. Makes it a challenge. If you still want to be a ranger, that's great. Step up to the plate and take on the challenge, dont just ditch rng and go do something else. IMO: the more difficult it is, the more fun it is

Ninja: Great update. Weeds the sucky ninjas out from the great ones. As said with the ranger, it now takes skill. I'm still gonna do some ninjaing and I'm gonna learn to be good at it even if it is just to sub on my thief. I've done about 4 levels on it so far, and I'm having no problems holding hate. If anything, it's making it better so when I lose my shadows it's easier to get hate off me so i can get utsu back up plus the toolcases are awesome. Lets you bring all your tools without needing gobbiebag 8

[Thanatos02]

A lot of people have had some good posts, but I'll reply specifically to Jae, since Jae responded to me indepth. ^_^

Hmm.. Since when melees accuracy was determine by monsters lvl? Or even if it did... what makes you think that our accuracy wasnt???

Not Acc. I'm talking about damage.

Are you telling us.. our money falls from sky? Our money is farmed took us a lot of time to support ourself. Again, We spend a lot of time to farm. Okie.... let say we can save our money.. from crafting. What about the time&money we skilling up the woodworking(16+ can be up to 70+ for demon/kabura arrow)& alchemy(50+ for holy water and bullets i think)?
I dont remember how much I spent my money from 1-50.. but I'm pretty sure after lv15... I had to buy stack of bolt for 4k.. after lv24 have to buy shihei now.. well basically as you lvl.. since you need more exp.. you need more arrows to burn... I remember I had to burn 500k+ per lvl above lv50+. Do you realize how much arrows we spend? Like I said are you a ranger to verify this?
...
Again we pay for our dmg. I know every job do.. but its just that you sounded like youw know how much we are going through when you cannot verify it. You are assuming this statement on ranger only pt? Regular pt with SC+MB... BLM can take out 50% of enemie life.. meaning 1 SC + MB will kill the monster. Hmm.. now you tell rangers whining about how we used to do in party or about the dmg.. when YOU didnt know about these huh ~.~

A few points, quickly.
I'm not saying that money falls from the sky for Rng.
I *am* saying that the money you farm for and craft for is spent being better in a party at dmg and skill chains, as well as efficiency in a party.
Rangers are one of the few classes in the game that can turn gil into sheer power in a party. Only the Ninja duplicates the effect.

The downside of this effect is that it comes out of pocket, so to be a good Ranger, you will *have* to spend more time out of a party making that money. Every other DD spends the time that a Ranger spends farming sitting on their ass looking for parties. At least your time is productive, and you have something to show for it when you're invited. An invitation, I should point out, that is easy to get.

Another point. Those expensive arrows? They're often made at a loss by crafters looking to skill-up. At least you're coming out ahead by buying them. ^.^;;

My arguement is *not* that everyone pays for equipment. Rangers pay more. It's a fact. I *am* saying that you get more for that money then just dmg.

Well not sure how many mobs are out there actually do AoE that will destory all the party member. And Ranger only do this after the update. We were trying to be mannered and do the dmg what we are suppose to in party to save all of us in time before the patch. And about this Close-up thinging... I dont know why ranger have to carry melee weapons in first place(when SE have 20mil ranger axe in the current market.. dont flame me on this 1... i know there are other options.. but why do we need melee weapon?)? Since Ranger only gotta go range attack according to some of us.

Weapons give bonuses. I'm not expecting you to melee a mob. You're out of the way of AoE, which won't usually kill the party but that dmg *does* need to be healed. That healing takes resources. Not getting hit by an AoE *saves* resources.

Again ~.~ You were never there to see the result. You cannot say this unless you are actually ranger. Like I said from my point of view. Other jobs can do damage what rangers can do. You are the 1 fail to see this and complain.

That's not a card you get to play. You can't say "You're not a Rng, so don't talk." I play this game, and can look at the numbers, time, and cost that Rng go through. I can talk to Rng, and see what they do in parties I am in. As a Rdm, I play many roles, and need to know how each class works.
I *do* see it from your PoV. I just think you're ignoring some aspects. Rng do good dmg, are efficient. Other jobs equal hit-per-hit dmg, like Drg and Mnk, but Rng do dmg from a distance, are efficient, and have very good skill chains.
I'm not complaining - I'm saying that Rng is a good class, but it was *too* good. Maybe the patch went too far, I don't know. But I've seen a lot of Rng do nothing but complain. The best Rng I saw, though, didn't complain, they just played on.
Maybe you should try seeing it from *my* point of view. ^_^
Thank you for replying. =)

[xaresity]

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[xaresity]

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