as if /pizza was bad enough.....check this out

[Crispleaf]

Well, I think if Sony allowed you to sell in-game items on all their game servers for real life money, as long as it was done through their own servers, and they didn't charge any transaction fees for the service...

It would destroy IGE.

IGE makes its living being the so-called "middle man." Traditionally, goldsellers can't sell gold directly or they will be sued and shut down. That's where IGE comes in and where they make their money.

But, a chinese goldseller, if it was "legitimate" to sell gold for money, would make far more money being paid directly by the buyer rather than have IGE take a cut of their profit. Not only that, but the consumer would feel safer buying through a Sony server because he or she would be guaranteed the gold/items/whatever that they bought under Sony's watchful eye. IGE can't ever guarantee anything bought through them because they aren't involved in the game directly on any level.

So really, this move cuts IGE out. There will still be gold selling, and all the other problems, but the architect of the woes will go out-of-business if all MMO companies eventually take this approach. That could be what Sony has in mind.

[Tivia]

Immoral yes, cheating no more then a high level twinking their low level job. It gives no more advantage then you have if you change to a level one job and use your gil to buy all the top gear for that level. Your character has an advantage over every other level 1, should that be considered cheating? however the Advantage is slight, and not something that skill cannot make up for. even with the best gear, if you pull a mob your incapable of killing, it will kill you just as sure as the non geared. Is buying coin to get this same advantage immoral? certaintly. Is the act against the eula? yep, however is it cheating from the perspective of it gives the character an unfair advantage over other players? nope. and that is the distinction i am trying to get across.

As for my morals, I said I do not participate in the buying or selling of coin. It goes against my standards as a gamer, I find it extremely lame and cheap for someone to resort to this. to me its a cop out, its someone who cant play the game. However aside from that, I see it as no different then the Hundreds of newbie events I ran in EQ where I would assign random useless tasks for amusement usually getting a newbie killed a few dozen times, then Twink the daylights out of them. Did they pay for that twinking? yes they did...not in RL cash, but in my RL amusement..I see no difference. I also see it as no different then me taking my high level characters resources, buying the absolute best of everything and giving it to a newly created character of my own, And I distinctly remember in the early days of EQ, gamers having this same exact outrage over Twinks saying it was Cheating and Unfair as well. Kind of funny how twinking is perfectlly acceptable now.

Now to address other issues,

NM camping and such..I have done various forms of camping in all kinds of games. I have competed side by side with bots, farmers, legit players you name it. I have never once considered myself at a disadvantage unless they were specifically hacking which is a different thing alltogether. Did I spend a good deal of time Camping NM's in FFXI? early on a bit..however I found I could make 10x more money on BCNM's and Reselling the AH then a NM Bot could ever hope to make. So no, I do not consider them anymore of a threat then someone farming a small area of a newbie zone for money.

SoE bots, Now how specifically Am i suppossed to prove it? Give you access to my account and tell you where they usually where so you can see for yourself? unlikely. Take it or leave it..I am no fan of SoE..I left EQ in anger..Right now they have nerfed my class so badly I log in for raids and get asked to sit out because My class went from required on raids to completely useless, to say I am pissed at SoE right now would be a huge understatement. There are no words to describe how pissed I am at paying for an account I do not get to use because the only thing I do is raid, and right now that is cut off to me because the last two patches took my class which was in dire need of buffing, broke half my skills the first one, and finished off the rest the next. I am no SoE Fan...not by any stretch.

FFXI nm camping, Good you are one of the ones who have discovered there are better ways to make money. I used that as an example because that is the biggest thing people cry about. As I said the NM bots do not affect me because I make far more money then they do and I have no need to camp the items they do. as a matter of fact They are honestly a benefit to me because I can get them to sell items to me cheaper then the ah average because I will go to them and pick it up, and I will resell it higher, because I am willing to sit on the item a week or two and buyout the rest of them until it sells. They however want instant gratification.

Or sure, the goldsellers would love it. Most of the legit or casual players without the RL cash to bankroll their game would look elsewhere

And that is Entirely the point..the gold sellers will love it...the ones wanting to have that option open to them will love it..Leaving the Rest of us..the Legit players on our own servers without them. I fail to see why you dislike this, outside for the sake of disagreeing with me..Afterall is this not what you want? the players who buy and sell gone? Obviously its not going to happen regularly every single company has been fighting this and losing..About time for a different strategy dont ya think?

LMAO, do you really think that the goldsellers would leave legit servers? The items that they would sell there through IGE say, would be worth more then they would be in a "sell" server.

What motivates a corporation more then increasing their value to their shareholders? nothing..So think about it this way, I am being optimistic and not saying the gold sellers will leave, I am saying they will be forced to, reason being..gold sellers on regular servers are not forced to share their profits with SoE..SoE is not making money..increasing their value to their shareholders..Thus they are more inclined to get rid of the sellers infringing on Their business. Yes I think the world is about to change for the Sellers, because now they are going to be Digging into SoE's pockets, and I firmly believe in this case corporate greed as some like to call it, is playing in our favor. I am not implying they are doing it for us...I am implying that money is the motivating factor.

Crispleaf..You just hit the nail on the head. That is spot on exactlly what SoE is trying to do, and Why i stated this is the inevitable future of gaming. The demand is there..I may not like it..Prrsha Definitally does not like it..and i know thousands of other gamers who flat out dispise it. But the fact is the Demand is there, and it is not going away. Either the Game Dev/publisher Steps in and Controls it, striking a reasonable comprimise..or Companies like IGE take over and Scamming, and rampant Botting, and MPKing are the theme...with the Dev controlling it however, it gives a chance for them to Curb these activities down, because the system will allow them to directly Track these players. Guess what you sell through the system, Its kind of obvious its going to flag your account...Start getting complaints about botting or bullying other players..they know who you are and why your doing it.

[Prrsha]

Immoral yes, cheating no more then a high level twinking their low level job. It gives no more advantage then you have if you change to a level one job and use your gil to buy all the top gear for that level. Your character has an advantage over every other level 1, should that be considered cheating? however the Advantage is slight, and not something that skill cannot make up for. even with the best gear, if you pull a mob your incapable of killing, it will kill you just as sure as the non geared. Is buying coin to get this same advantage immoral? certaintly. Is the act against the eula? yep, however is it cheating from the perspective of it gives the character an unfair advantage over other players? nope. and that is the distinction i am trying to get across.

"cheating" is all about giving a player an unfair advantage over other players... one that another player doesn't have the access to. When one "cheats" they vilolate the ingame rules to get ahead, weither it be botting, aim bot hacking, goldbuying etc.

The thing that seperates buying an item, with out-of-game cash other then using in-game cash, is that it's an outside element of the gaming environment. It gives players an edge that other players don't have access to outside of game.

[Prrsha]

As for my morals, I said I do not participate in the buying or selling of coin. It goes against my standards as a gamer, I find it extremely lame and cheap for someone to resort to this. to me its a cop out, its someone who cant play the game.

But you are for buying items in game with RL cash? Isn't that a cop out as well? You also said you are against voke botting but are for skillup bots. Your logic walks a very fine grey line.

[Prrsha]

Well, I think if Sony allowed you to sell in-game items on all their game servers for real life money, as long as it was done through their own servers, and they didn't charge any transaction fees for the service...

It would destroy IGE.

IGE makes its living being the so-called "middle man." Traditionally, goldsellers can't sell gold directly or they will be sued and shut down. That's where IGE comes in and where they make their money.

But, a chinese goldseller, if it was "legitimate" to sell gold for money, would make far more money being paid directly by the buyer rather than have IGE take a cut of their profit. Not only that, but the consumer would feel safer buying through a Sony server because he or she would be guaranteed the gold/items/whatever that they bought under Sony's watchful eye. IGE can't ever guarantee anything bought through them because they aren't involved in the game directly on any level.

So really, this move cuts IGE out. There will still be gold selling, and all the other problems, but the architect of the woes will go out-of-business if all MMO companies eventually take this approach. That could be what Sony has in mind.

If every MMORPG made items sellable on all of their serverse then I guess, yes there would be no IGE. However there would still be goldsellers working in sweat shops for some nameless company selling items to players through SoE's service. Isn't that the point here? Opening up a RL money trading game option doesn't solve the goldseller problem it just adds to it.

For some strange reason SoE seems to think most players approve of goldselling, I say they are way off the mark. Like I posted above, companies like IGE will STILL continue to operate on the "non-sell" servers and sell items there.

[Crispleaf]

I agree with you Prrsha, in that I hate the gil selling that goes on and I loathe how people cheat by buying gil and characters to be like the legitimate players who worked hard on their own over time to get the same thing.

I wish it didn't happen and that it could be easily stopped.

But the truth is, unless you dramatically change the way the game economy works, you'll never be able to stop it. The fact that IGE has its tendrils in so many games unchallenged after all this time is proof of this.

I didn't like Sony's idea at first, but, to use an analogy, it's the equivalent to stifling drug lords and their related crime syndicates by legalizing drugs.

I'm sure the entire gaming industry and even IGE is going to watch Sony's little experiment with great interest. With any luck, this may turn out to be a great idea.

[Prrsha]

I didn't like Sony's idea at first, but, to use an analogy, it's the equivalent to stifling drug lords and their related crime syndicates by legalizing drugs.

Yes, but the drug addicts are still getting strung out and the neighborhood turns into needle park. Sony's grand idea will only turn the game into a needle park.

[Crispleaf]

Yes, but the drug addicts are still getting strung out and the neighborhood turns into needle park. Sony's grand idea will only turn the game into a needle park.

That's true, it wouldn't have an immediate effect on gold selling.

However, as Tivia said, Sony would gain control of the situation, instead of being powerless to watch IGE call the shots.

With IGE out of the picture, Sony can then steer gold, item and character selling policy so that it isn't as harmful as it used to be. And they can also punish abusers because now everyone has to play by Sony's rules.

[Prrsha]

Yes, but the drug addicts are still getting strung out and the neighborhood turns into needle park. Sony's grand idea will only turn the game into a needle park.

That's true, it wouldn't have an immediate effect on gold selling.

However, as Tivia said, Sony would gain control of the situation, instead of being powerless to watch IGE call the shots.

With IGE out of the picture, Sony can then steer gold, item and character selling policy so that it isn't as harmful as it used to be. And they can also punish abusers because now everyone has to play by Sony's rules.

IGE would be gone, yes, but you forget that there will STILL be goldsellers. They just won't go through IGE anymore. You will still have people in China camping mobs and selling the items just like they used to. As for Sony keeping tabs on all of the campers/sellers/MPKers, I'll believe it when I see it. From what I hear they aren't doing a very good job enforcing their monolopy rules ATM.

[Prrsha]

And they can also punish abusers because now everyone has to play by Sony's rules.

And they can't punish goldsellers now that camp mobs for key items? What makes you think they can do so later?

[Tivia]

Simply put, I define cheating as breaking the rules in a manner that give a player a clear unfair advantage. This is my definition, I have never seen players buying gold or items as having any clear advantage over another player. Perhaps if you compared them to someone who is not smart enough to play the game to begin with..perhaps, but then skill could be defined as a clear advantage at that point. Until I run into a game where a player buying gold or items from other player ( Not the Developer like in Project Entropia ) gives that player a distinct advantage that I personally cannot overcome, I will stand by my stance that They get no tangible advantage.

To clarify my stance, I simply used the term buying coin, however That to me is a blanket statement for buying coin items or characters. I Do not support, or condone players that participate in either of the three. I think I have made my viewpoint on how I feel about these types clear enough. However outside it being an affront to my personal sense's as a gamer, I see no reason to fight what i view as an inevitability. My primary goal, however is not to convert people to accepting the practice, but to make them solidly think about it from all possible perspective's and take the emotion out of it. When i think of it from that standpoint, I cannot find a single reason it should not be here. Call me sick of the posts that you could sum up in 2 words, "It's Unfair" I dispise people unwilling to think independently, and those two words simply grate everything that is in me, because it rubs me as a two year olds argument. ( btw none of you have resorted to that here, and its alot of the reason I enjoy conversing with you all, one of the few forums that even through people disagree they disagree intelligently. )

As for the fine grey line I walk concerning the difference in vote bots, and skillup bots.
You are positively correct..I do walk a fine grey line,

My perspective as clear as I can put it.

Voke bot, this reads the memory thus can see an npc spawn far faster then an average player due to ffxi's spawncode where distance determins how quick the npc appears on your screen. This is a Clear and Distinct Advantage to a player, There is utterly no questioning how much of a disadvantage the player not using this is at. I am flatly against this type of bot for this specific reason.

Skillup bot, It reads your Mp, casts the spells you select until the mp is too low to do so, and then heals until full again..wash rinse repeat. What is the clear advantage it gives one player over another? Does it give the player a better chance at groups? ( Player with Max casting skills lfg!! ) I have never witnessed anyone advertising this, so obviously that does not matter. Does it make the person more skilled? nope..just caps out a skill that should have kept up to begin with. From my perspective, the only advantage a player gets from it, is They dont damage their wrists pressing a series of buttons over and over mindlessly for hours. Sorry I dont find this a part of the game fun, I have RSS that is borderline carpal tunnel, I know many gamers like me..Skills that require the same repetative motion for more then about 15 minutes hurt. There is utterly no reason a game should require this of you...EVER...Have I created a skillupbot for eq2? nope, not needed..skills keep up with your levels..your skill is capped out long before you approach the next level. Had FFXI done this, I would have never written such a script..why would I? unnecessary.

So this is the fine grey line I walk..This is my logic and distinction..Does it give a clear advantage yes or no? one does..the other does not, and by my definition of cheating there is no cheating if someone us using a skillup bot because it gives zero advantage.

[Prrsha]

Simply put, I define cheating as breaking the rules in a manner that give a player a clear unfair advantage. This is my definition, I have never seen players buying gold or items as having any clear advantage over another player. Perhaps if you compared them to someone who is not smart enough to play the game to begin with..perhaps, but then skill could be defined as a clear advantage at that point. Until I run into a game where a player buying gold or items from other player ( Not the Developer like in Project Entropia ) gives that player a distinct advantage that I personally cannot overcome, I will stand by my stance that They get no tangible advantage.

Then you are just in denial then. Stronger/better items DO give players an advantage over other players as do better summoning skills. Such items/skills should be obtained legitly not through automation or trading of real life cash. I honestly don't see why you don't get this.

[Fayin]

Yes, but the drug addicts are still getting strung out and the neighborhood turns into needle park. Sony's grand idea will only turn the game into a needle park.

Then don't live in the projects.

Prrsha, I do agree that cheating is when something external to the game gives someone a clear advantage over someone else who doesn't have access to it.... Up to a point. I have DSL. Mr. BroadbandIsNotAvailibleInYourArea has 56k. Do I have an advantage over Mr. B? You bet. I almost never r0, I have lower latency, and less FPS problems due to network inadequacies. Do I feel like I'm cheating? Nope. I have a 5 year old computer. Mr. Leet just got a top of the line Alienware rig yesterday. Alliance raid, full effects he never goes below 80FPS. I pull 20 FPS with all my effects off. Is Mr. Leet cheating? Nope. I'm a poor collage student. I spent $200 on groceries yesterday and they have to last me two months. Gil McGilbuyer just spent $200 on gil. Is McGilbuyer cheating? Oh yes. Why is that? Because my definition of cheating in a MM game is when you use resources external to the game to gain an advantage in-game relating to the way the mechanics of the game work.

Now you are arguing that what SOE has done is going to make cheating run rampant and that it doesn't fix the problem. This move was not intended to fix the problem and I don't believe that it will cause rampent cheating. Why? Follow my logic please...

Let's say I'm a platseller. I farm stuff, and then sell the plat to IGE. IGE then sells it to the consumer. Let's say 100 plat goes for $20 US to the consumer. When I sell the same to IGE I get $13 US. Ok, now SOE has changed the rules for the game. On a sellserver I can sell directly to the consumer for $20. Why use IGE? I mean with them I make less money, risk banning due to EULA violation, and some possibility of fraud. Great! I still do what I have been, but with benefits. IGE disappears from sellservers as all the platsellers no longer sell to them. With selling 'legalized' so to speak on sellservers and free transfers to them for the consumers who want to, most of the consumers are now on them. This has caused the value of the plat to drop as there's a glut of sellers on these servers. Now 100 plat goes for $15 on the sellservers. Not as much but hey, still more than was made before selling to IGE, right? But what about the non-sellservers? Ok instead I'm a platseller on a non-sellserver. I still have to sell to IGE but now I only get $8 per 100 plat. Why? Economics. The consumers look at the price of plat on the sellservers and decide that they'll either buy for that price from IGE on the non-sellservers or just transfer over to a sellserver. So IGE has to lower to $15, which means they only buy for $8. Me, being pissed at this, transfers over to a sellserver like many others, along with some consumers who want the sexah cheap platz on the other servers. Not everyone will do this however and the scales will balance out, and the price will stabilize. However, most of the sellers and buyers will be on the sellservers. And those who do not want 'cheaters' on their server will find that many (but not all, you'll never get rid of them all) are gone. In the end, most people win. Those who don't win, are IGE.

/applaud SOE

Unless the game mechanics of MM games are changed to disallow all item and money transfers between characters, there will be cheating. And even then, accounts themselves can be bought and sold. Morality is all fine and good, but reality is king, and the reality is that this is the path games are going down. They have been since EQ, UO, and AC were the 'Big Three'.

[Prrsha]

However, most of the sellers and buyers will be on the sellservers. And those who do not want 'cheaters' on their server will find that many (but not all, you'll never get rid of them all) are gone. In the end, most people win. Those who don't win, are IGE.

Nah, that won't be the case. IGE will most likely continue to operate in the "non-sell" servers that they always have. They most likely won't touch the sell servers with a 10-foot pole. Why? Well, because most of the players on the sell server will be players selling items for RL cash and like you said they wouldn't be able to outbid the players on the sell servers.

What does all of this boil down to? The same thing that you had before. You have goldseller companies still running on the legit servers and you've ended up with a few "trash" goldselling servers.

So, what's the answer to this problem? You can't sweep the problem under the rug like SoE is trying to do. It will still be there. The answer to the problem is really better enforcement of the existing servers. Why won't they do that? It all comes down to money. More GMs = more of a cash loss for them. And heck, if they can charge a transaction fee for selling RL items on the sell server, that's more money right? As a company how can you go wrong?

Sounds nice on paper but in actuality it will just upset the majority of the player base when implemented. They will still see goldsellers still on the legit servers and still be just as upset before. In fact, the very fact that SoE tried to legitimize a frowned upon practice would make them even less appealing once their "plan" fails to garner results.

So, the "moral" "legit" (call them what you will) players leave the game in protest. What do you have now? A community full of goldbuyers and sellers? Call me nuts but that's not really a community I would enjoy interacting with.

[Prrsha]

Prrsha, I do agree that cheating is when something external to the game gives someone a clear advantage over someone else who doesn't have access to it.... Up to a point. I have DSL. Mr. BroadbandIsNotAvailibleInYourArea has 56k. Do I have an advantage over Mr. B? You bet. I almost never r0, I have lower latency, and less FPS problems due to network inadequacies. Do I feel like I'm cheating? Nope. I have a 5 year old computer. Mr. Leet just got a top of the line Alienware rig yesterday. Alliance raid, full effects he never goes below 80FPS. I pull 20 FPS with all my effects off. Is Mr. Leet cheating? Nope. I'm a poor collage student. I spent $200 on groceries yesterday and they have to last me two months. Gil McGilbuyer just spent $200 on gil. Is McGilbuyer cheating? Oh yes. Why is that? Because my definition of cheating in a MM game is when you use resources external to the game to gain an advantage in-game relating to the way the mechanics of the game work.

Better modems don't generate characters with better stats or abilities and alter the game mechanics. No one will cry foul if you have a better connection in a FPS game and are able to "frag" your opponent faster then another person. However they will get pissed if you use an external program like an aim bot to give them an edge. An aim bot alters the mechanics of the game and changes its content using an external source. The same thing applies to RL money transfers. If they wanted xxx item in the game they should trade "ingame" money for it and not use outside influences to change the playing field.

[Prrsha]

On anotherrr note, this thread is doing wonders for my post count. I'm actually beginning to catch Kopopo.

[Prrsha]

Also for your sampling pleasure:

What do the players of EQ2 think about it?

http://vnboards.ign.com/EQ2_General_Boa ... 5869034/?0

http://vnboards.ign.com/EQ2_General_Boa ... 863694/?52

Like I said, it looks like they are going to lose a large amount of players regarding this.

[Prrsha]

Interesting read on those forums:

IMHO, there are a number of linked reasons that support the belief that the Exchange will increase botters and farmers on all servers.

-increased competition (and SOE's %) on Exchange Servers will most likely cut the profit that professional farmers make on those servers. They will look for ways to increase their profit and non-Exchange servers are the right place from their perspective.

-increased promotion of Exchange and the money that can be made by anyone will encourage even more people to become farmers.

-SOE has not been able to sufficienly manage the botters and farmers we currently have, when they have been actively acting against them. I have no confidence that they will be any more effective in the future on non-exchange servers

These are the 3 main reasons why I believe that any claim by SOE that the impact of the officially sanctioned Exchange will be minimal on non Exchange servers is false. They are also the main reasons why I believe that this move will actually increase botters and farmers on non-Excange servers.

[colbwa]

Thanks for that article, I'm glad to see SOE was thinking the same as me all along.

[Prrsha]

Thanks for that article, I'm glad to see SOE was thinking the same as me all along.

A server full of Colbwas? Hmmm, I guess that's a new way to look at it.

[Tivia]

Ok Prrsha, indulge me for a few minutes if you will.

I would like to know exactly why you feel, other then a morality standpoint why a player who buys virtual items has an advantage over you.

Because this is a standpoint I simply fail to comprehend, because I have never once felt like they held any advantage over me, when I played 40 hours a week, I never felt it, and now that I play perhaps 8 hours a week, I still fail to see any advantage.

I have grouped with people who have bought Virtual stuff, and I must say on the average their skill is extremely lacking, and they usually get kicked out of the group. I have had people who are obvious ebays apply to the guilds I am in, and usually within a couple of raids, shot down and blacklisted by nearly every top tier guild because we all have a disdain for ebaby's. I only see it as a method that the casual player can somewhat level the already extremely uneven playing field with the more hardcore players, and even then I see it as having little more then a psychological impact for the buying player, because I have yet to see one that it gave them any advantage.

As I said, cheating to me is if they have a clear and unfair advantage that I cannot overcome...I have never once seen this, It is possibly because I am usually one of the first handful to the level cap in any given game and thereby render myself immune to most of the casual play, however I doubt that is the case.

[Prrsha]

As I said, cheating to me is if they have a clear and unfair advantage that I cannot overcome...I have never once seen this, It is possibly because I am usually one of the first handful to the level cap in any given game and thereby render myself immune to most of the casual play, however I doubt that is the case.

That's the problem. "Cheating" is if they have a clear and unfair advantage from an outside source REGARDLESS if you as a legit player can overcome it or not. I could use an aim bot for counterstrike. Would it guarantee I would win in CS? No. A legit player could still kill me. Would it make my team automatically win? Nope. The other team could still win regardless if I am using the bot. However I would have an advantage over other players who are playing legally.

Now using the same scenario, I buy items with real life cash (an outside source). Would it make me automatically be better then every player? No. But I would have better items then a legit player (Which means better stats in the dice game) and in the hands of an equally skilled player, I would have an advantage over the legit player.

As summed up in my other post:

"cheating" is all about giving a player an unfair advantage over other players... one that another player doesn't have the access to. When one "cheats" they vilolate the ingame rules to get ahead, weither it be botting, aim bot hacking, goldbuying etc.

The thing that seperates buying an item, with out-of-game cash other then using in-game cash, is that it's an outside element of the gaming environment. It gives players an edge that other players don't have access to outside of game.

[Tivia]

Do not ignore the fact that Twinking your character through any means is thus the same and thus falls into the same sphere of argument. If you wish to say Twinking is imbalancing and thus cheating, then you are joining a far more mature debate that has legs...one that is more or less tangential to this current debate, but certainly not irrelevant. This based upon your definition of cheating.

Lets assume for a minute that everyone has access to spend an additional 10 dollars, some choose to spend that $10 on the game for ingame cash becaues they can only invest two hours a week into the game, lets say in this example they are a doctor. The other is a Teen who uses that 10 dollars to buy some snacks of some sort, because he can spend far more hours in game then the doctor and the money is more valuable to him for RL things then ingame. Alot of people are probably on fixed incomes. From being to young to work or not having a job, being in school, job not paying enough and to many bills, being disabled, etc. Of course my reply to the fixed income debate is, Why are you spending $15 a month on a game, when $10 is alot of money to you but that is an entirely different argument from an ethics standpoint.

It is true, though most people can earn a few dollars with even a marginal effort. But far more valid and to the point are those with poor social skills (even antisocial skills) or those who simply desire to "go it alone" These players are handicapped by not being able to beg off of others that which they could obtain through a few dollars expenditure. In the early days of gaming, this was how newbies advanced, though begging of higher level players. I remember it clearly in UO, a newbie would appear in town and ask for help and get showered with armor, weapons and coin. It was mostly excess and useless stuff to higher level players but to a newbie it was a huge aid. This trait however stopped abruptly with EQ, when Equipment became far more valuable and difficult to attain, and thus the market of selling gold and items started to grow, because people still wanted this advantage to get started, but had no way to otherwise get it. Gifting, Twinking..buying it it all equates into the same thing, a chance for those who are more casual, or lesser skilled to level the playing field with those more so somewhat.

Again, it is a matter of choice. They are not compelled to engage in this behavior, but they may choose to do so if they wish it. For some, money is easier to come by than friendship...for others, the reverse is true. Either way it's twinking one's own character through means not obtained directly through one's own actions...you're not looting that which you either buy or are gifted. You may find one distasteful, but they are nearly identical in effect and practice.

You can propose that the teen has been disadvantaged by the doctor's expenditures. But equally so I stipulate that the doctor has far less time to play and thus is at a distinct disadvantage in competition. Providing goods to purchase actually allows the doctor to balance the playing field by allowing him to trade his excess commodity of funds for his shortfall of time. That has long been an argument used by players who use this method to advance, in that casual gamers can now find themselves able to compete with the full-time players who have a decidedly distinct advantage.

This is an advantage that has been held since the Beginning of MMORPG's, This has been what the larger crowd the casual crowd has complained about from the beginning, that those with Far more time on their hands, have a huge and non overcomable advantage over those without the time. Thus you have a delimma, If the developer caters to the casual player, the hardcore get bored in a short time and leave. This leaves the casual players with nothing to to strive to because if the hardcore community leaves, the flow of high end items ceases. However if the Devs cater exclusively to the hardcore, then the game becomes excessively difficult and the playing field unbalance's even more and the casual group leaves.

Items do not directly equate to mastery in a MMOG. A fully-decked out level 10 warrior is going to be trounced soundly by the level 40 warrior in ghetto gear. The teen, with far more flexible hours and more leisure time to spare than the doctor, is infinitely more suited to being a stronger player as well as a stronger character. Even if the doctor buys a level 50 warrior with epic gear, he will still need to learn the tactics and strategies necessary to exploit his advantage, not to mention developing the relationships with end-game powerhouse guilds and players in order to be a competitor. This being one of the most important thing's are those relationships. Money does not buy relationships, and in effect the player that bought their way up while they appear to have an advantage from the casual perspective, from the hardcore perspective they have effectively bottlenecked themselves because the Casual community treats them as an outcast, as does the hardcore community. End result? any advantage suppossedly gained is now lost, the player is still a casual player, and has in effect ruined the game for themselves because they skipped by large parts of it.

We all know right from wrong, their is no sportsmanship in buying your items or coin or characters.

However while in my style of play I thoroughly enjoy looting my own items, producing my own goods, and otherwise mastering my own fate through my character. I thrill in the direct experience...it is what motivates me to play in the first place.

Now to clarify that, I frown upon it, I will not participate in the game with those people, however If their playing time and what they require to have enjoyment dictates they have the desire to purchase to keep up, I will not be the one who tells them no.

The key point is that I have absolutely no envy of that player's position in the game, the items that player has, nor the level the player has achieved. I value that which I do in the game and leave everyone else to value what they do as they see fit. I have never felt cheapened by another player's advancement. Therein lies the primary difference between my approach to the game and the approach that many who sit in judgement seem to be taking.

What you are saying is that putting money on the table further imbalances the game thus cheating. What I am saying is that it adds more ways to level the playing field. The player with more time than money can use his time to get more money, and the player with more money than time can use his money to mitigate his lack of time.

That's the nature of advancement through acquisition, versus the nature of advancement through character development. In almost every MMOG I've played the main strength that can be exploited by the character through his skills as a character and his skills as a player. Items assist in this matter, but they are rarely the deciding factor between absolute success and absolute failure. A poor player cannot be made better by excellent items, but an excellent player can often overcome his lack of excellent items.

What's the end result of this? Purchasing items may give a slight edge, but it certainly does not propell the player to success where he was otherwise a failure. Hence, purchasing items is not going to completely destroy the balance of power in characters in these virtual worlds, Thus I feel it is not cheating because it gives no clear advantage. On that note, SoE is changing their rules, according to their rules it will be legal practice thus no possible way to classify as cheating. Again, No matter how you look at it, in practice is has zero difference in gifting and twinking. If I use my level 50 toon to uber equip my level 1, or If I walk up to some random newbie and offer to deck them out if they perform a few menial tasks for my personal amusement, it is no different then someone purchasing an amount of coin off the web to offset their lack of playing time or ability, to achieve the same effect. It in no way cheapens my personal experience.

[Prrsha]

What you are saying is that putting money on the table further imbalances the game thus cheating. What I am saying is that it adds more ways to level the playing field. The player with more time than money can use his time to get more money, and the player with more money than time can use his money to mitigate his lack of time.

That's not what I said. I said that using an outside resource to gain an advantage over another player is "cheating". Spending more time on your character should be rewarded. That's really the point of MMORPGs isn't it? It's a contest of leveling treadmills.

Seriously if you don't have the time/skill/or whatever to play a game how you like it, don't play it. People feel that because they don't have xxx they are justified to cheat/exploit. It's an old lame excuse that I've heard 100 times over.

As for you comment on twinkling, as far as I'm concerned that's exploiting a flaw in the game mechanics and should be a bannable offense like MPKing is.

[Prrsha]

What's the end result of this? Purchasing items may give a slight edge, but it certainly does not propell the player to success where he was otherwise a failure. Hence, purchasing items is not going to completely destroy the balance of power in characters in these virtual worlds, Thus I feel it is not cheating because it gives no clear advantage. On that note, SoE is changing their rules, according to their rules it will be legal practice thus no possible way to classify as cheating. Again, No matter how you look at it, in practice is has zero difference in gifting and twinking. If I use my level 50 toon to uber equip my level 1, or If I walk up to some random newbie and offer to deck them out if they perform a few menial tasks for my personal amusement, it is no different then someone purchasing an amount of coin off the web to offset their lack of playing time or ability, to achieve the same effect. It in no way cheapens my personal experience.

Once again you are just going over the same thing again. Read my post above regarding Counterstrike.

[Tivia]

As for you comment on twinkling, as far as I'm concerned that's exploiting a flaw in the game mechanics and should be a bannable offense like MPKing is.

Interesting statement,

so you are telling me that when you start a new job in ffxi, you in no way shape or form allow the money from your main job play a role in that jobs equipment, none of your gear filters down, you play it fresh starting out?

I ask this because while in other games you have to create a new character to do a new job, the only difference in ffxi in effect is that you can simply change jobs, however the principle is precisely the same.

[Prrsha]

Perhaps I am misunderstanding what Twinkling is. If its just passing cash/item to another character, that's fine. You are not dealing with an outside resource.

[Tivia]

Correct, Twinking is a high level player Giving gear or coin, things otherwise unavailable to a low level character, wether their own or another players. As a few references in my previous post's I mentioned Twinking out other newbies in exchange for personal amusement.

gifting, is giving the same types of items/coin to the lower level players without expecting anything in return. gifting is alot of what happened in UO. I rarly gift, but I twink all the time...I mean if im going to give items to a newbie that makes their leveling up experience faster, then I expect to get some amusement out of it, else I will find another...willing victim

However either way, I understand your perspective and I could easily take your stance. I simply choose to disagree with it based upon my personal experience, and with what i see as gaming evolves, I simply see no reason to continue fighting this they way it has been fought thus far.

[Baketsu]

Never Thought I would hear myself say this, but.....


How do we let the IRS know about these sorts of activities? Knowing how the government likes to keep it's dirty little hand in the till, how do we blow the whistle on IGN and all the other gil-sellers for tax evasion?

[Tivia]

IGE is not a us based business and thus immune to US tax laws. And as far as those who gil sell in the us, If they are prolific ebayers they have the proper tax forms I assure you, however most do not sell enough to IGE to classify their earnings as anything other then tips, and even still if they did you do not know for a fact they are evading taxes, there are forms where you can claim income like that.

Rather silly imo to assume just because they participate in online selling in a game that they are also tax evaders. Also for that matter quite frankly I would rather the IRS go after people who are actual evaders..people 50+ thousand in owed taxes, before it becomes several hundred thousand.