Dark Knight > Dragoon

Post by **Sugami** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 10:45 am

Soloing means not being in a party, pet does not count as party ^^;

Think reason there are a lot of BSTs is because they can get great exp without being in a party and we all get fed up of parties every now and then ^^;

How many jobs you know can have an equiuvalent of a Cure III or IV for 5 or 7mp? ^^

Rueka · Post by **Rueka** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 4:46 pm

When the wyvern dies and the DRG uses their 2hr to resummon it, how is that any different from another job using their 2hr to win a fight?

I just look at it as using all the resources at your disposal to be able to take something down. So they used their 2hr before so it had time to reset. Seeing as the wyvern is half of what the job is about I don't see how that can be considered unfair. Meh, but that's just my opinion. As you can tell, I was impressed by the video

Post by **Alya Mizar (Tsybil)** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 5:02 pm

Rueka wrote:When the wyvern dies and the DRG uses their 2hr to resummon it, how is that any different from another job using their 2hr to win a fight?

Difference: No other job HAS to use their two hour. For the rest of us, that is something to get one out of deep kim-chee. For the DRG, it is an everyday part of life.

Lihera · Post by **Lihera** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 5:37 pm

mmmmm.... kimchi

Sugarpie · Post by **Sugarpie** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 6:02 pm

your weird Lihera <.< very weird
But yeah!! SOMEONE GIMME LINK TO VIDEO!! ROAR!

Baketsu · Post by **Baketsu** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 8:38 pm

I want more comics and now

Batsu · Post by **Batsu** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 8:49 pm

I'll try to find some more for you. . . because I'm such a nice guy. =P

Prrsha · Post by **Prrsha** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 9:13 pm

Mrrrr? Comics? Herrre are some. They are not FFXI or Mithra related but they are good none the less.

http://www.megatokyo.com/

http://www.vgcats.com/

http://www.clanbob.net/ (Has some FFXI stuff)

http://www.homestarrunner.com/

Prrsha · Post by **Prrsha** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 9:23 pm

Prrsha · Post by **Prrsha** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 9:24 pm

Neoshinobi · Post by **Neoshinobi** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 10:17 pm

Where do you get these cutey things?

Batsu · Post by **Batsu** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 11:58 pm

orz

I'll post more later, right now I'm lazy.

Batsu · Post by **Batsu** » Wed Apr 06, 2005 1:01 am

. . .bump. . .

Josiejo · Post by **Josiejo** » Wed Apr 06, 2005 5:54 am

Eviticus wrote:Yes, it is a 2-hour ability. One which is in constant use for 99% of all dragoons. But yet, I see very few Dragoons in FFXI. I see more beastmasters. If this makes a character that great, why aren't people clammoring to finish their drg flag quest? Why do people say that Drg is gimped? If they constantly have a little NPC buddy out, why aren't more people going OMG Luk 4+ teh Dr4g00n sk1LLz.

Even as Drg/Whm, soloing is still soloing. Beast masters solo, and they have a pet around with them too. Beast master pets are even more powerful. A charmed monster can take an easy prey. My wyvern will need a spirit link or two, which hurts me severely, to take on stuff like that. They just don't have high damage outputs.

Sorry if I am ranting, I just find it odd that you say Dragoons don't solo when they fight monsters by themselves. Dragoons lack severely in passive and active traits. The majority of their power is invested solely in their Wyvern dependant on their subjobs. The Wyvern is at least a full third, if not half, of all of the power and versatility in a Dragoon. To say that their Wyvern is unfair in situations like that, implies they'd be more balenced without it. Without my wyvern, I don't think I could take out any other class my level in a one v. one match.

Well, there aren't any other classes who can use their 2 hour abilities back to back. There aren't any other classes, besides BST and SMN, that can allow another creature to take damage for them and help heal them. I don't consider BSTs soloers either. I do, however, consider SMN soloers because their help costs them MP, which means there is a direct penalty to the player for use of another creature to help in battle. With DRGs, there is none, save the 2 hour ability which is the option of anyone to use in dangerous situations. With BSTs, there is none, given that their pets can be summoned with an item or charmed without any loss to the player, and used as a meat shield while they just sit there. It's not an insult to say you're not soloing... I don't think it makes anyone any better for playing a job that doesn't depend on secondary creature assistance. All I'm saying is you're not alone, and not penalized to have another being with you, and therefore not soloing. Sorry if you think it's a bad thing to say, but it's far from inaccurate.

Post by **Sugami** » Wed Apr 06, 2005 12:27 pm

*sigh*
Okay BSTs suffer an exp penalty for having a charmed pet. Lots of people think this effects the whole party but they're wrong. Firstly if you have a charmed pet when you kill a mob you suffer 30% exp loss, so if you just killed an EM mob you'll get 70 exp instead of 100. Another thing to note is that your exp is based on the highest level in your pseudo-party. So if you charm a T and attack an EM the mob will actually be a DC to your pet so instead of 100 exp you'll only get about 72 exp minus the 30% for having a pet that's about 50 exp. This is why BST don't charm Ts, also the charm usually doens't last longer than 30secs.

Where's BST and SMN may like or don't mind their pet taking damage for them I'm pretty sure DRGs do not like their cute ickle wyvern taking damage.
Just like to clarify that a pet is not the same as a party member so strictly speaking all 3 classes with a pet can solo whether you count it as soloing or not is irrelevant as you're wrong

Josiejo · Post by **Josiejo** » Wed Apr 06, 2005 1:22 pm

Sugami wrote:*sigh*
Okay BSTs suffer an exp penalty for having a charmed pet. Lots of people think this effects the whole party but they're wrong. Firstly if you have a charmed pet when you kill a mob you suffer 30% exp loss, so if you just killed an EM mob you'll get 70 exp instead of 100. Another thing to note is that your exp is based on the highest level in your pseudo-party. So if you charm a T and attack an EM the mob will actually be a DC to your pet so instead of 100 exp you'll only get about 72 exp minus the 30% for having a pet that's about 50 exp. This is why BST don't charm Ts, also the charm usually doens't last longer than 30secs.

Where's BST and SMN may like or don't mind their pet taking damage for them I'm pretty sure DRGs do not like their cute ickle wyvern taking damage.
Just like to clarify that a pet is not the same as a party member so strictly speaking all 3 classes with a pet can solo whether you count it as soloing or not is irrelevant as you're wrong

You might be surprised, but exp penalties are kind of a risk of the BST job... more like an indirect penalty. It's certainly not a direct penalty in the way that a SMN's MP draining is. And of course, I don't care what you say, having a pet tank or heal without any direct penalty to your character is not soloing. DRGs don't like their pets taking damage, sure, but with Spirit Link and WHM subjob, it's almost like a RDM Convert. Plus the fact that apparently DRGs are uber-prepared so that they don't mind the Wyvern dying once, because they'll just 2-hour again in the same fight. Wowwee.

Hate to burst your bubble, Sugami, but I'm not wrong.

Post by **Sugami** » Wed Apr 06, 2005 1:26 pm

Well of course a good BST will manage their pet's HP so that it'll die just before the mob so they can take the full 100exp but as a leveling BST it is quite hard to get right at times (until dismiss).

Put it this way, goto party tab and if it says look for party it means you're not in one, not being in a party means you are solo

Josiejo · Post by **Josiejo** » Wed Apr 06, 2005 3:36 pm

Sugami wrote:Well of course a good BST will manage their pet's HP so that it'll die just before the mob so they can take the full 100exp but as a leveling BST it is quite hard to get right at times (until dismiss).

Put it this way, goto party tab and if it says look for party it means you're not in one, not being in a party means you are solo

Is that all you have? A technicality? Try opening your eyes... there's a friendly entity helping DRGs and BSTs kill things. These friendlies will take damage for them and sometimes heal them (DRGs). There is no counteraction for this exchange, therefore the friendly acts as a party member would: cooperating with the BST | DRG to defeat their target. When you're able to read between the lines, you'll see that in fact this partnership is more like grouping and less like soloing. If you can't, then I suppose you'll fall back on technicalities.

Post by **Sugami** » Wed Apr 06, 2005 5:33 pm

Damn right

The technicality is that the game says it is soloing so

Eviticus · Post by **Eviticus** » Wed Apr 06, 2005 6:55 pm

Bst and Smn pets can take damage for their masters. Wyverns won't. Mostly, because if you engage the monster, you're dealing out way more damage then your pet. Once the fight gets started, it's nearly impossible to swich hate over. But once you do, now you have the problem of the Wyvern taking damage. If it dies, you either have to use your 2hr, or you're out of luck.

And How many job abilities does a warrior have? A Dark Knight? A Thief? Ok, now take away the pets....how many job abilities does a Bst have? A Dragoon? Warriors have -just as much- help in fighting a monster through their job abilities as Dragoons do through their pets. I think the biggest technicality of all here is that all these extra things other classes get are internal rather then external.

Post by **Karou Ariyen** » Wed Apr 06, 2005 7:47 pm

I may only be 12 drg but your wyrven CAN take damage, not directly of course, but AOE's in valkrum ive had nasty AOE's on Lumiere, and she did get attack directly a couple times, but i was dealing out way more damage then her anyways, just a simple observation is all.

Neoshinobi · Post by **Neoshinobi** » Thu Apr 07, 2005 12:48 am

Soloing is defined as one {player} {character} fighting alone.

So there. And where do you get off saying there has to be a direct penalty to be considered soloing? A {beastmaster} penalty is having to take the time to kill off their pet every fight, isn't that penalty enough to be considered "soloing" in your eyes?

I don't know about others, but just because your job has a {Pet} doesn't suddenly take away the aspect of soloing...

On the note of {Dragoon} I feel their {Wyvern} shouldn't be some 2-hour...When you think of a 2-hour you think of some kind of special ability thats usually rather short lived...Not some {Pet} you have to hold onto for the next 2 hours until you can use them again...

I'm not a {Dragoon} really, but I just don't find the idea of your 2-hour being calling out a {Wyvern} you have to take care of until your 2-hour elapses...I mean, {Summoner} and {Beastmaster} 2-hour is basically their pets using their true power...So why not {Dragoon}?

Batsu · Post by **Batsu** » Thu Apr 07, 2005 12:50 am

Fine. . . nobody notice my posts. . .

No more comics for you!

Neoshinobi · Post by **Neoshinobi** » Thu Apr 07, 2005 12:55 am

Batsu wrote:Fine. . . nobody notice my posts. . .

No more comics for you!

Maybe if you post more....

Get to it Elvaan boy! :whip:

Batsu · Post by **Batsu** » Thu Apr 07, 2005 12:59 am

Batsu sighs dejectedly.

Eviticus · Post by **Eviticus** » Thu Apr 07, 2005 5:25 am

Ok, I don't think The Dragoons do or don't solo issue will be resolved at the moment. It's just a matter of personal opinion and interpretation.

Side note, however, two hours are usually an OH SHlT manuver. Mnk, Thf, Pld, Sam, Smn, Whm, Blm, Rdm and so on. Drgs hav no O.S. option, no safety net.

Josiejo · Post by **Josiejo** » Thu Apr 07, 2005 6:40 am

Eviticus wrote:Ok, I don't think The Dragoons do or don't solo issue will be resolved at the moment. It's just a matter of personal opinion and interpretation.

Side note, however, two hours are usually an OH SHlT manuver. Mnk, Thf, Pld, Sam, Smn, Whm, Blm, Rdm and so on. Drgs hav no O.S. option, no safety net.

Then what's the point of making sure to have it charged when fighting an NM? Possibly because when your Wyvern dies you say "Oh sh*t!" and jump to your Call Wyvern macro? "Aye!", says Captain Obvious.

Post by **Sugami** » Thu Apr 07, 2005 11:59 am

Captain obvious is a moron

I think a lot of DRGs will say SE have boned them sideways, as you guys have said having Call Wyvern a 2hr really does suck. BST can whip out a jug pet at any time (past 20 I think) or charm a pet whenever, SMN can summoner an avatar whenever they feel but poor DRGs have to wait 2 hours if they're unlucky.

Generally if I'm in trouble I say "Oh sh*t!" and dismiss my ickly wyvern as I don't want to be waiting to get her back

wyvern won't save your neck if you're in deep doodoo

Neoshinobi · Post by **Neoshinobi** » Thu Apr 07, 2005 2:39 pm

Sugami wrote:Captain obvious is a moron

I think a lot of DRGs will say SE have boned them sideways, as you guys have said having Call Wyvern a 2hr really does suck. BST can whip out a jug pet at any time (past 20 I think) or charm a pet whenever, SMN can summoner an avatar whenever they feel but poor DRGs have to wait 2 hours if they're unlucky.

Generally if I'm in trouble I say "Oh sh*t!" and dismiss my ickly wyvern as I don't want to be waiting to get her back wyvern won't save your neck if you're in deep doodoo

Level 23 to be exact.

Josiejo · Post by **Josiejo** » Thu Apr 07, 2005 10:08 pm

Sugami wrote:Captain obvious is a moron

I think a lot of DRGs will say SE have boned them sideways, as you guys have said having Call Wyvern a 2hr really does suck. BST can whip out a jug pet at any time (past 20 I think) or charm a pet whenever, SMN can summoner an avatar whenever they feel but poor DRGs have to wait 2 hours if they're unlucky.

Generally if I'm in trouble I say "Oh sh*t!" and dismiss my ickly wyvern as I don't want to be waiting to get her back wyvern won't save your neck if you're in deep doodoo

Unless they're casting Cure III on you on the cheap. I dunno, maybe it's a tradeoff... DRGs don't like to depend on their 2-hour to completely save them, yet no one else can have their 2-hour active however long they want as long as they're careful. And as a Warrior, my 2-hour has never Cure III'ed me. In fact, my 2-hour hardly ever saves my arse when I'm in trouble, given that it's totally dependant on actually hitting my target, and doesn't seem to work during Weapon Skills.

Oh well, I'm done trying to discuss this... I never wanted to fight with anyone here about it, just stating my opinion.

Speaking of 2 hour abilities though, wouldn't it be cool if BLMs got Chainspell? I mean, not great in party situations, but if you really needed to divert hate and try to take out a mob before they defeat party members, a BLM with Chainspell would be like unloading a fleet of cannons on them! Or if Chainspell had Manafont's ability as well... O.o that would be awesome!