Dual Wielding for Thiefs = Icky

[Eviticus]

Ummm...yes?

o.O

[Nivez]

/sigh

ive avoided responding cauze ive been trying to gather my thoughts and not just scream...

ok here is my point, and this goes for any job.
having the best equipment doesnt mean having good skill (think ebay here)

however this is not true

you can be skillful with crap gear.

to be completly honest, if i saw a drk/drg/or sam at lvl 70 w/o a hauberk, think gear, at a venerer and a sniper, or duel snipers, a life belt, a RG collar, and/or assault earring. i would be appald and frankly would question thier ability to be good at thier job. (mithra drk are special, they can get away with a venerer ring and any other ring, but still 2 snipers are best)

gear goes hand in hand with skill, w/o good gear you cannot be skillful at your job. you dont have to have Ub3r 1337 gear to be good at your job, but you need decent. what i have stated above is DECENT gear for a mele of those jobs. you notice i didnt mention thief there, relativly because they are different.

Thief is an odd job, for SA and TA you need to maxamixe your DEX and AGI, so therefor items that increase DEX and AGI are more important than items that increase ACC. however at a point this breaks down. about level 70 you see thiefs switching over to snipers. why? simply because they are having a hard time hitting mobs, and could use the extra acc.

as for drg well they are a special case, they cant wear a haubergion, so they usually go with duel snipers, assault, mermans gorget, life belt, and Scorpion harness or assault jerkin.

as for party vs all other subs for thief ill break it down into my pros and cons for each one.

Thf/War decent for beginners, stupid once you have advanced jobs

thf/mnk if your just starting as thief, than this is your best subjob, then again, its stupid once you can get advanced jobs.

thf/rng.... ok you get a few things here, most useful is wide scan. the ranger weapon skills arent very useful, since your SATA viper bite is better. another good upside is that with an xbow and good marksmanship you can do stuff like use acid bolts, bloody bolts and sleep bolts on mobs. however you can do this normally w/o ranger sub. its a decent job combo, i just dont really like it in the long run

thf/sam as a general note for everyone, subbing sam before lvl 60 is stupid; end of discussion. after level 60, you would probably get great benefit out of it. ive never seen it, but it should be fun. store TP2, meditate, and third eye, you would probably be getting TP as fast if not faster than with /nin sub, and would take about the same damage thanks to high evasion and third eye. however, in the long run i think it isnt the best sub, because you get less agi and dex from this sub.

thf/nin | this is by far the best all around sub for thief, you get duel weild2, which allows you to weld 2 weapons, with a reduced delay. also you get the best dex and agi boost from any subjob, you get utusemi, which puts 3 shadows up to protect you, will eventually get utusemi: ni and have even more shadows to protect you on pulls (or hate from a SA Dancing Edge). you also can use genin earring (which provides +4 agi as long as your subbing ninja) and will find getting parties easier. to me this is the best sub for thief and the one that you should seriously use for your ffxi existence.

[Sugarpie]

Ok ill break it down for you

1
NEVER MOCK THE THF/WAR!!! i play thf/war at lvl 47 and ill be damned if i EVER see a thf/nin get TP faster then me or do more dmg then me

Your SUBJOB doesn't matter, it is how WELL you use your JOB and your SJ to your benefit

SATA isn't just controled by DEX and AGI btw, ATK does help it, ATK that WAR gives

So if you decide to flame thf/war at least know what your talking about

Some of us can't afford to lvl ninja with all the inflation going on SO have some consideration

WHILE thf/nin is a good job and sj combo, one of the best for thf warrior sub shouldn't be flamed

As a few said and i said before, a job is only effective if you know what your doing and personally i love thf/war for the ATK and STR
And my DEX is nearly equal to thf/nin, thf/nin has maybe 2 more base dex then me the AGI gets me tho, they have maybe +5 AGI on me...but Food can make up for it fairly easily

Thats my thoughts, Take it away people of the flaming of THF/war!

[Ephi]

ill do w/e i feel to sub THF or use THF for sub...
it really doesnt matter right now all my other jobs r under lvl 10
the highest 1s r stuck at lvls 7-9

[Josiejo]

Come on, Nivez. You countered your own points and still ended up saying gear is essential, and the established optimum combo in the community for Thieves is THF/NIN.

I know that there is going to be some gear that everyone just has... sometimes that's hard to get around, especially in this particular game. However, I'll reiterate the point you initially made, which is that the best gear doesn't mean that's the most skilled player. I don't think it means they're bad at their job, because some people want to be "uber" on every level, job performance, equipped items, etc. This is how they validate their elitism. Arrogance, though, is a very big problem for me, and someone is more bound to be expelled from my group for that than not wearing a certain piece of equipment or having a less common job combo.

When I play with a group of people online, my main concerns are: 1) Are we making progress towards the group's goals and 2) are we having fun? A "no" answer for either of those two questions is cause for concern and reform, but nothing else. No "what? You're not wearing a Holy Phial? /pcmd kick Poorwhitemage" or "SAM/BRD? Are you out of your mind?! Sorry, party's full. *looks at the party list with 2 people in it*". I believe games are meant for fun, and if everyone's having fun, and accomplishing what they set out to do, why not allow yourself to enjoy the experience? I think those groups are more special than ones that form up with established norms.

[Sugarpie]

Very well put Josiejo, i agree with you 100%

[Tivia]

I agree to a point with josie..

but as an exception to that, I will never group with war/whm type combos

[Sugarpie]

why not Tivia? war/whm is like a PLD...cept not as good x.x but it still can tank well and manage hate...very well

[Tivia]

why not Tivia? war/whm is like a PLD...cept not as good x.x but it still can tank well and manage hate...very well

I have never grouped with one that came even close to being like a PLD, they always tanked like crap, sponged up a ton of mp trying to keep them alive and didnt have enough MP to be worthwhile. For that matter PLD are overrated, honestly while I will group with one Ill take a nin over a PLD any day of the week.

But classes with stupid subjobs are a supreme pet peeve of mine. I do not mind unusual combinations, but there are a few combinations that I just refuse to contend with.

[Crispleaf]

Well, I've never tried getting a party as a Warrior/White Mage, but I have thought about it. I've stuck with Warrior/Monk or Warrior/Ninja so far, though.

I think the reason people don't like the war/whm combination is because if that's what you really wanted to be, you should go with pld/war because it does the same thing, only better. It's pretty much the same reason in the first 40 levels, people seek a white mage before taking a red mage if they want a main healer.

A warrior/white mage is going to have less defense than a paladin/warrior, and the point is to take a beating, so defense is the most important thing. You will also have less mp to cure yourself with. At level 37, paladins also get Flash which is like a second Provoke, something a warrior/white mage will never have.

On the upside, you'll have more spells to choose from as a war/whm. You could cure yourself of poison, for example. You'd certainly do more damage than a paladin could, as well.

Still, there are more downsides than upsides. No Invincible, no Cover, no Sentinel. You'll take more damage, your spells will only have half the strength of a paladin's, and you'll have less mp.

You could still get parties, but only after all the pld/wars, war/nins, and nin/wars were taken

...

And then they'll ask you if you could sub ninja please

[Alya Mizar (Tsybil)]

My Elvaan PLD took WAR to 30 as WAR/RDM just to avoid the WAR/WHM stigma. Yeah, a bit of a problem with hate controll, no Boost, not enough Cures to draw hate like a PLD does. Then again she was not often Main Tank, and when she was she would usually be asked to use the Greataxe or Greatsword instead of Axe and Shield.

I have no idea what she will do if she ever gets PLD to 60. WAR/PLD 30 - 38???

[Crispleaf]

My Elvaan PLD took WAR to 30 as WAR/RDM just to avoid the WAR/WHM stigma.

Funny thing is, at level 30, that might actually be better

At least you'd have fast cast so your spells wouldn't be interupted as easily, and you gain some en- spells for bonus damage in a few levels. And I think red mages can take damage better than a white mage can too.

[mozyr]

In my year of being on this game, and in the 150+ levels I've gained on various jobs, I have yet to see a NIN/WAR hold hate better than a Paladin -- even with the spells they use on mobs. That isn't to say they can't hold hate -- but I've never seen a NIN take the hate off Benediction or some of the higher level BLM -ga spells like some of the Paladins I've partied with.

-- Sarah

[Sugarpie]

Few PLD's i partied with kept hate on Ancient magic x.x talk about crazy PLD's lol sad thing is, 1 of them was using n earth staff >.< i laughed

But yeah, i would SO take PLD over NIN, they control hate better and so what if they take some dmg? just means the WHM/healer gets to be less lazy lol

[Tamarik]

In my year of being on this game, and in the 150+ levels I've gained on various jobs, I have yet to see a NIN/WAR hold hate better than a Paladin -- even with the spells they use on mobs. That isn't to say they can't hold hate -- but I've never seen a NIN take the hate off Benediction or some of the higher level BLM -ga spells like some of the Paladins I've partied with.

{Ninja} Tank + {Ancient} {Magic} = {Black Mage} {death}

[Maezen]

IMO i find each tank job to fit it's own role very well, and truthfully it all depends on WHAT monsters you'll be fighting...PLD's do well in parties where the monster will NOT be able to kill them in one special attack or that can hit fairly often whereas a ninja really shines in parties where the mobs attack slowly and might have a one hit kill but will never really get it through with their shadows up, also ninja don't do well against AoE's >.>;

really I believe it's not the job, it's the player behind the character, anyone can do a good job, some do it through their equipment (and gaining of gil) others do it by using what they have on hand. The really good players do both though...i hate people that buy gil online

hehe and on a side note, the blm shouldn't be throwing ancient magics around till he/she knows that hate is solidly pinned on the tank or that the AM will outright kill the mob, and yes this means make the pt hold their SC till you know the Magic Burst will pop the mob like an overly ripe fruit.


on another side note....how the heck did we get to talking about tanks in a thread asking if dual wield was valuable?!~!

[Neoshinobi]

In my experience i've found nin tanks to be better than pld tanks...It seems whenever theres a pld tank he/she always dies.

[Kandora]

Since when did we ever stay on topic...ohh look a bunny!

[Alya Mizar (Tsybil)]

on another side note....how the heck did we get to talking about tanks in a thread asking if dual wield was valuable?!~!

Dual wield to Ninjas to tanking to...

A bunny??? Wherrre??

[Eviticus]

In my experience i've found nin tanks to be better than pld tanks...It seems whenever theres a pld tank he/she always dies.

If the tank and whm have any idea of what they are doing, either that scenario should not have happened, or they just got really unlucky.

[Tivia]

In my year of being on this game, and in the 150+ levels I've gained on various jobs, I have yet to see a NIN/WAR hold hate better than a Paladin -- even with the spells they use on mobs. That isn't to say they can't hold hate -- but I've never seen a NIN take the hate off Benediction or some of the higher level BLM -ga spells like some of the Paladins I've partied with.

-- Sarah

I do not disagree that a pld can generate more hate.

However Considering I keep haste on the nin 100% of the time, I very very rarly get hit, and when I do that is what Stoneskin + blink are for. Of course it also helps since I played a monk and capped my defensive skills that my whm dodges most everything.

As for pulling aggro after a Benediction, 9 times out of 10 If I am having to use Benediction, I screwed up or the puller screwed up. I should not have to use it. outside that, again Stoneskin and blink, I can usually channel through several hits, I have many a time alternated them out for each other as one wore off poping the other back up until the tank got aggro back. And for those times that all else fails and the nin cant get aggro after a bene, well there are 2 results.

1) they finish the fight since they are all now full health, I reraise have a couple mins of downtime chug a yagudo and am good to go.
2) they all die, I reraise, Raise everyone and we continue on.

I dislike death, I often tell my parties I have a severe allergy to death. However in the end I am not one of those whm's who dies one time and walks out on the party. So long as its a good overall group I fully realize I will die from time to time. However exception to that of course, stupid parties..yea bye bye..have a nice life.

[Neoshinobi]

In my experience i've found nin tanks to be better than pld tanks...It seems whenever theres a pld tank he/she always dies.

If the tank and whm have any idea of what they are doing, either that scenario should not have happened, or they just got really unlucky.

Try dying every other fight from sand spider's special in Quicksand Caves...or from Exorays in Crawler's Nest...

I've found a nin tank to be better as those situations are almost always avoided and when its a pld half the time he's not at full health and dies from the attack whereas the nin is usaully at 75% or more...

[Maezen]

In my experience i've found nin tanks to be better than pld tanks...It seems whenever theres a pld tank he/she always dies.

If the tank and whm have any idea of what they are doing, either that scenario should not have happened, or they just got really unlucky.

Try dying every other fight from sand spider's special in Quicksand Caves...or from Exorays in Crawler's Nest...

I've found a nin tank to be better as those situations are almost always avoided and when its a pld half the time he's not at full health and dies from the attack whereas the nin is usaully at 75% or more...

if you had read my post i explained that each type of tank is good in it's own situation. As a pld, you should beg or order your party to NOT fight against monsters that have the 1hit KO moves. As a Ninja fight kicking and screaming to never fight monk type monsters or ones that have AoEs.

I feel like i'm not being listened to

[Neoshinobi]

If the tank and whm have any idea of what they are doing, either that scenario should not have happened, or they just got really unlucky.

Try dying every other fight from sand spider's special in Quicksand Caves...or from Exorays in Crawler's Nest...

I've found a nin tank to be better as those situations are almost always avoided and when its a pld half the time he's not at full health and dies from the attack whereas the nin is usaully at 75% or more...

if you had read my post i explained that each type of tank is good in it's own situation. As a pld, you should beg or order your party to NOT fight against monsters that have the 1hit KO moves. As a Ninja fight kicking and screaming to never fight monk type monsters or ones that have AoEs.

I feel like i'm not being listened to

I'm a thief and I don't enjoy being told not to pull certain monsters because of a bad party...but more than often I end up _having_ to pull something like it because theres theres usually nothing else.

[Alya Mizar (Tsybil)]

I feel like i'm not being listened to

What could give you that idea? Purrrhaps all the kitties madly chasing after bunnies?

[Lihera]

*talks with mouth full*
What bunnies?

[Maezen]

hehe i realize we don't stay on topic well...Lihera at least let me stew the rabbits first

and Neo, I'm not demanding you pull those types of monsters but just trying to help you think about your tanks, the whole "Yummy targets" in the FFXI guide is true to a point, if you choose good targets then it's better off for the party and for you (xp wise). Try to convince your pt's to level in places where you know the layout, the mobs in the general vicinity and you'll be regarded as a great puller if you can chain in big xp with little downtime

[elita]

all i have to say is <3 lvl 74+ THF/NIN. in a lvl PT you can chose anything you want but if you ever expect to do any end game content you NEED ninja sub. dual wield or not utsusemi is the most valuable tool a thf can have, with it you can solo almost anything as a thf.

[Prrsha]

Kittycat solos Behemoths as THF/NIN on Ragnarok heh.

[Aony]

Try dying every other fight from sand spider's special in Quicksand Caves...or from Exorays in Crawler's Nest...

I've found a nin tank to be better as those situations are almost always avoided and when its a pld half the time he's not at full health and dies from the attack whereas the nin is usaully at 75% or more...

if you had read my post i explained that each type of tank is good in it's own situation. As a pld, you should beg or order your party to NOT fight against monsters that have the 1hit KO moves. As a Ninja fight kicking and screaming to never fight monk type monsters or ones that have AoEs.

I feel like i'm not being listened to

I'm a thief and I don't enjoy being told not to pull certain monsters because of a bad party...but more than often I end up _having_ to pull something like it because theres theres usually nothing else.

ok, first: if you dont like searching for specific mobs think of this: would you rather take a while to find a good mob, or die alot? Always being the puller myself i can kind of relate but also having leveled thf as my first job all the way through to lvl 30 with no pl or anthing, especially from 10-15, i learned alot of patience, mainly the 2 hour wait to find a party. Then it just kind of stayed with me the rest of the time.

second: usually there is something else...just it's not smart to attack it

third: I've decided to start coloring my posts

fourth: i'm listing alot of useless information arent I?

fifth: that's alot of quote-in-quote!