Dual Wielding for Thiefs = Icky

[Jaela]

I think that Dual Wielding for thieves is useless, simple as that.

Reason #1 :!:
Dual wielding takes the delay of the two weapons, and adds them together, making attacks slower, much slower

Reason #2 :!:
Dual wielding two knives gives you 2x the miss chance, so if you wait longer with the extra delay you get, and you miss twice, to attack again, you have to wait your full delay time.

Reason #3 :!:
At higher levels, hitting things is tougher than ever, and without lots of Accuracy+ gear, you will almost NEVER hit with more than one knife at a time, so why bother Dual wielding in the first place?

[Maezen]

you make some good points Jae, but i think people use dual wield for the stats from certain weapons...you know things that will boost dex and agility for that added SATA damage, or to increase their ranged attack stat. Also lots of times I notice that thf's i party with won't even have SATA ready until after they have their TP for it so it's not really hurting them too much but that's just an observation from a non-thf.

I think the real reason they take Ninja for a subjob is for the blink pulling, it saves the whm some MP and assures that you'll get back to camp safely

[kashell]

I think that Dual Wielding for thieves is useless, simple as that.

Reason #1 :!:
Dual wielding takes the delay of the two weapons, and adds them together, making attacks slower, much slower

Reason #2 :!:
Dual wielding two knives gives you 2x the miss chance, so if you wait longer with the extra delay you get, and you miss twice, to attack again, you have to wait your full delay time.

Reason #3 :!:
At higher levels, hitting things is tougher than ever, and without lots of Accuracy+ gear, you will almost NEVER hit with more than one knife at a time, so why bother Dual wielding in the first place?

Reason #1
while this is true at lowers lvl at lvl 50 you'll have Dual Weld II from your nin sub which reduces the delay a bit.

Reason #2
well if you have twice the chance miss you'll have twice the chance to hit! , but honestly this shouldn't really be a reason not to dual weld, it's not like dual welding makes you miss more often, you'll miss just as often with 1 dagger.

Reason #3
um...I don't know what kind of thfs you been pting with but at higher lvls thfs can still hit very well with all the dex they get (and +dex from equips).

I'll throw in my own reason why thfs should dual weld, because if your subbing nin (which thf should be) you can equip a 2nd dagger/sword that increases dex in your off hand which can help increase your SATA damage.

[Nivez]

second reason, Duel Weild 2, post lvl 50 the duel weild ability changes (25 nin sub) delay from weapons is no longer the combined ammount, but is actually less...

i dont know the exacts, but i think its add delay 1 plus delay 2 and multiply by .75 (i think it could be .50) and thats your attack delay.

[Ephi]

dual wield isnt really y im for NIN... tho its a good thing... or bad as uve stated... im really gonna have to try it b4 i come to a conclusion... but the dual wield is for stats i think... or the ailing knives ie sleep dagger and poison dagger... but i personaly think the sleep 1 sux... out of numerous strikes since ive had it it only caused the target to sleep 2 times... but im gonna have to see like i said... im poor anyway so ill be lucky to get NIN to be really usable...

OH YA just last night i unlocked PLD... now i have ALL the advanced jobs ... funny my first to unlock was DRK an my last PLD... says i favor darkness to light... but thats a matter of opinion i dont really think that

[Lihera]

well, I don't think theives sub ninja 'cause it looks cool, but there are some great stat boosting daggers/swords that would absolutely stink as a main weapon, hornetneedle for instance. For instance, at level 30, you can use whatever main you want, and a mithran scimitar for the hefty dex bonus. Oh, and Utsuemi is kinda nice.

[Jaela]

We're talking about Dual Wield not Utsusemi, i understand the Stat Bonuses, but thats about it until Dual Wield II at Lv.50 When Dual Wield doesn't take as much time to use, but 75-25= 50 levels of uselessness, and 75-50= 25 levels of use, so i win by 66.666666% :3

[Nivez]

lvls or exp wise? from 63-75 is HALF the exp of the game, 25-50 is like less than 1/5 of the total youl ever get for the game, so i think it isnt a joke, and to be honest /nin is the BEST sub for thief. coming from a whm and a pld, if you sub anything else, please dont expect to get parties, no abilities any other job gives you comes close to duel weild and utusemi.

[Maezen]

what about berserk + SATA?

[Lihera]

Personally, it's all about what your preference is. Hell, you can su ranger and get great tp that way. I really could care less about the cookie cutter job combos.

[Nivez]

WRONG, cookie cutter or not, you could sub war but berserk is not as good as /nin. and about /rng, you can do it if you want, but /nin is still better, to be bunt, utusemi + duel weld + tonko is better than anything else on thief. the reason its cookie cutter is because it really is the ONLY sub for thief that gives the stuff it needs, the others augement it slightly but dont give the boots that /nin does.

[Jaela]

I still think its icky. I'm subbing RNG at 38 and i can gather about 100 tp every 35-45 seconds if all goes well, otherwise i would say that since partying above 40 without a ranger is crazy, and that rangers are pullers about 95% of the time in higher leveled parties, besides, any good puller shouldnt get hit on his/her way back to camp regardless of their sub-job, i can say that more than 90% of the pulls i bring back to camp are perfect, with no hits to me on my part, the other 10% consists of attacks that hit me, attacks that i evaded, and about 1-3% is when monsters link on me.

[Crispleaf]

I have three words in favor of dual-wield thieves:

Two Mithran Scimitars

[Leane]

You should have put a third option:
it doesn't matter to me

[mozyr]

Dual wielding for thieves is lame, as stated by the original poster. The delay is doubled, and you have a higher risk for hitting. And thieves aren't meant to be damage dealers because, let's face it, daggers do crap for damage other than with SATA or SATA with a skillchain (which sometimes miss).

The only thing it's good for as some other people have pointed it out is DEX bonuses. But that's about it.

-- Sarah

[Neoshinobi]

Well there really is no one side to this...

Ninja gives more evasion...

Warrior more survivibility and damage...

Ranger more damage....

[Aony]

personally, I got thf up to 30 and got nin, thinking it would be great. Personally, i thought it was horrible, but keep in mind everyone's personal preference is different. With the dual wield Merc. Capt. Kukri, the delay was very slow and i didnt see any real damage improvement. A few days later i was invited to a pt for Garliage Citadel while grabbin BST and BRD in jueno and ran around with my trusty shield

The utsusemi was nice, but with a reliable tank and knowledge of how to pull, I wasnt really using it much. Tonko is good depending on where ur going, and if u can take a choco there.

So personally, i'm going to lvl up rng to sub on there. But a thing with me, i prefer to attack more quickly with my weapons. To see my char just sit there for 8 seconds doin nothing just kinda bores me to death.

Also keep in mind my highest lvl is lvl 32 thf, so i have no idea how the higher lvls work.

[Eviticus]

Yeah, there is the psychological bonus of seeing constant attacks land. My first main job was thf, but now that I'm a Dragoon, the delay times kill me....especilly when I miss alot. >.< Lol, that's actually my only problem with Dragoon....well...that and I can't name my Wyvern Trogdor.

Anyways, in short, you don't -really- need a shield as a thf. It helps if you have a bad tank, but not a whole lot. Especilly since shields no longer block all damage when it gets used. If the daggers provide a bonus, why not have two? It costs more, yes. But it is more useful in the long run.

Just my opinion.

[mozyr]

I've come to terms with the fact that everyone only wants to party with a WAR/NIN, RNG/NIN, or a THF/NIN, which essentially means I'll never be leveling any of those jobs since my NIN is level 8, and I sold Utsusemi: Ichi in order to buy Absorb-Dex.

/cheer

If I do ever get around to leveling THF again (it's level 30), I'll probably be subbing RNG or DRK with with. I know a level 50 THF who's subbed DRK with it since he first started to level THF and he's never had problems getting parties with that combo.

-- Sarah

[Tamarik]

Dual wielding for thieves is lame, as stated by the original poster.

No it's not: it's about the only viable combo outside of /SAM.

The delay is doubled.

No it's not, addressed earlier in the thread. Besides, if you're using dual daggers before 50THF and don't have Dual Wield II, then your total delay before hitting is ~300, which is on par with some of the better 1H Axes out there.

You SHOULD be using 1H Sword until it's capped at your level and swapping to dual daggers after until Dual Wield II.

and you have a higher risk for hitting.

And this is bad... how?

And thieves aren't meant to be damage dealers because, let's face it, daggers do crap for damage other than with SATA or SATA with a skillchain (which sometimes miss).

You have no idea what you're talking about.

That's the whole purpose behind Thief: to build TP and hammer the mob with a massive SATA skillchain. And frankly, I outdamage dinky little DRK's at 62 with {Assassin} by alternating SA and TA every 30 seconds and landing ~200 damage hits every time against IT mobs. I don't need to pop {Souleater} - {Berserk} - {Last Resort} and pull hate off the tank (especially a NIN tank) in order to accomplish that either.

And SATA NEVER misses unless you're a crappy THF.

The only thing it's good for as some other people have pointed it out is DEX bonuses. But that's about it.

Stick to DRK, please.

[Neoshinobi]

Really, I've yet to see my SATA + WS miss...and all my others skills too for that matter.

[Eviticus]

Drg/thf is such a powerful combo with SA-Double Thrust, it rivals Drg/war. Sneak Attack is fun for all ages and classes.

[Josiejo]

Bleh... I hate seeing a WS miss... {Fast Blade} comes to mind. But I dunno... I agree that cookie-cutter job combos are great if that's how you want to play. If you wanna break the mold, I /salute you. And it can be done effectively. Nothing worse than people entering parties with a preconceived (and often incorrect) notion of what job combos will work and what will not. If you choose not to party with someone with a job combo that may deviate from the standard, a) you may be missing a good thing, and b) who made you Game Lord? People play games for fun, and usually don't want or require others to tell them how they'd prefer them to play it. Advice is ok, but beyond that really crosses some boundaries.

As far as the specific THF/NIN combo, I've seen it used so many times, and never once thought it was particularly bad or weak. I use Great Swords or Great Axes so I'm used to delay (and it really doesn't bother me that much). But, I don't get to attack twice (unless I counter), nor extra stat bonuses. And I tend to regard myself as a DD, so the THF/NIN choice for dual wield doesn't really surprise me for those players who want to have the chance to create extra damage.

[Nivez]

the time for experimenting with jobs is roughly between lvls 10-40, for those 30 ish lvls you can get away with just about anything. and some odd things come up, but post 50 and especially post 60, people (including me) DONT WANT a weird job combo. we dont want to see something different, we want to be able to expect the outcome and plan for it. as a whm and a pld, knowing whats going on in the party at all times is my job. and when people do stupid things like sub rng on thief and use sidewinder (and miss cauze your racc sucks) i most likely will kick the thief or leave myself. its fine if you dont want to be cookie cutter, just dont expect to get anywhere with it. at higher lvls ESPECIALLY for a DD class, your going to need the BEST gear and accessories to stand out and get parties easily, as well as having great skill in what your doing. im not meaning to sound mean, but if your unwilling to do this, and wont listen to the arguement, then understand that high lvls in ffxi will be meaningless for you. because it all comes down to your job and what your job is. im hitting you with reality here, your job will determine your slot in the world. choose wisely, do stupid things (like sub war) and you wont get parties, because noone wants a thf/war, cauze they dont get TP fast enough, noone wants a thf/rng, because they dont get TP fast enough AND thier ranger abilites are pretty much wasted. even the one viable thief other sub thf/sam, isnt wanted much because even though youl get rediculous ammounts of TP, you will lose your CRITICAL spell, which is utusemi. if you dont like it, then im sorry, but this is the way it is. if you dont like it, tough, go play WoW, cauze elitism is the goal of this game.

[Eviticus]

And Nivez's post is exactly why I am halting my DD job at 38, and farming for the cash for Snipers...

[Josiejo]

Nivez, you're infuriating. I've played WoW, decidedly more than you, and I can tell you it gets boring really quick. In fact, if you like cookie-cutter, WoW is the game for you. You only get one job and it's easier for people to a) know what to expect from you and your job because b) it's easier for them to force others into their cookie-cutter roles. If you're a Warrior, you tank. If you're a Priest, you heal. If you cast Smite, people wonder what the crap you're doing. Priests have Shadow magic, but until they're a high enough level to assign Talent Points to that tree alone, they rarely use those spells.

Back to FFXI though, I don't care about others' opinions of my job selection. If I think up a combo I want to try, I'll do it. I don't think being the expected combo and having the expected equipment makes you "stand out"... in fact, I think it makes you just one of the crowd. Why pick you when there are so many others just like you? Your performance one night can be forgotten quite easily by the next Joe Thief/Ninja who performs at least as well as you did. The problem is that people get too comfortable... they don't want to experiment because "they want to get experience". Don't you think that someone who can level a non-standard combo to 50s or 60s would have enough of a handle on what to do that they might actually be good at it as well? If elitism is what you're after, I'm curious what you'll think about it after the game dies. Then it won't matter so much what Rank/Level you were, because you won't be able to prove it to them if you wanted to, but probably no one would care that much anyway. If you work your butt off to become uber-Nivez, the only thing that matters in the end is if you had fun doing it. If you played how everyone else expected you to play, I wonder how fun that actually is? I think it's more fun to exceed expectations.

[Tamarik]

at higher lvls ESPECIALLY for a DD class, your going to need the BEST gear and accessories to stand out and get parties easily, as well as having great skill in what your doing.

I agree with you on pretty much everything to this point, but I have to disagree a little here. The reason being is that I'm a DAMN GOOD THF (my name's been getting around the game, some of the Nirvana people know about me) and I do not have OMG UBER gear... In fact, the only thing even reasonably uber about my gear is my Venerer's Ring and Leaping Boots. I don't even have a Emp. Hairpin, and I do my THF job damn well.

Gear certainly helps, but all the DEX and AGI in the world isn't going to mean jack sh*t if you can't line up correctly and hit SATA. I've had people give me a {Good job!} when I do a run-by {Assassin} TA on a bad pull by timing the usage of my TA Ability with when my attack is going to trigger and effectively running behind the tank and attacking at the exact right moment and then getting out of the way without ever stopping to line up.

All the uber gear in the world can't substitute for raw skill.

even the one viable thief other sub thf/sam, isnt wanted much because even though youl get rediculous ammounts of TP, you will lose your CRITICAL spell, which is utusemi.

Why is this so critical to THF? I can see why if the THF is pulling, but at that level there should be plenty of RNG's to go around... I know that I have my Utsusemi time out more often than being used up by absorbing attacks, a complete waste of shihei and subsequently gil.

[Neoshinobi]

and when people do stupid things like sub rng on thief and use sidewinder (and miss cauze your racc sucks) i most likely will kick the thief or leave myself.

So your saying that the two jobs that totally compliment each other is a bad idea? Do you know how good a THF/RNG combo can be?

So you'll leave just because the subbed job isn't what was expected? Are you that naive about what should and should not be subbed?

at higher lvls ESPECIALLY for a DD class, your going to need the BEST gear and accessories to stand out and get parties easily, as well as having great skill in what your doing

When it comes to making a party you don't know what the person is wearing unless you ask them, let alone their skill.

Even at high levels the chance of finding a person with outstanding equipment and skill, let alone half the time it doesn't matter since your just going to wan't that last person to change the tides of battle from stupid to just managable.

Why, I usually get loads of /tell's asking me to join a party, even when i'm not seeking and I sure don't have the best equipment out there, but I do know what i'm doing, unlike many others who can't even provoke right.

Tell me if the person sucks, which i've seen lots of, how in the world did they get that high level job?

do stupid things (like sub war) and you wont get parties

Can you back this up? A THF/WAR combo adds possibility to be a backup tank, plus the added abilities and survivibility. Why actually if not for my love of dual wield this is most likely what I would sub.

As for the lack of getting a party, chances are your more likely to get a party with this combo than say THF/NIN.

even the one viable thief other sub thf/sam, isnt wanted much because even though youl get rediculous ammounts of TP

I do believe building TP fast is the thing every party wants from their THF, a SATA+WS every minute or so is something of a godsend, imo.

you will lose your CRITICAL spell, which is utusemi

I don't know where the hell you got this kind of stupid view. Over half the time (say 75%) I don't need Utsusemi, my evasion and pulling skills alone do the job for me.

If you need Utsusemi just to perform as a Thief then you really need to look at a different job.

[Eviticus]

I know lvl 30 isn't a 'big deal' for most of you, which is generally why I keep my opinion to myself. But I did Thf/War to 30. Unless I was being stupid, which I tried not to do, I never got hit. I did that on a 28.8k(At the best of times). With appropriate timing on /ra <t> and moving, the monster would only catch up with me if the tank voked slowly.

I don't see why I would've needed Nin, except for maybe the dual weild. But I was never a rich one. I got by, but if I had to buy 2 weapons, it would have been a heavy drain on me. Frankly, I would've rather had the shield anyways. The occasional nullification of damage was welcomed. (They took that away recently, but whatever.)

And for Neoshinobi, I've met a Rank 5 idiot in Yhoatar. He was our whm for the late 20 something pt, and he honestly did not know what Divine Seal did. He was amazed at how effective Divine Seal + Curaga was. His excuse, he hadn't been a whm all that long. He said a friend power-lvled him up through the ranks, and that he had a lvl 50 rdm or something.

Level does not equal skill, not with some of the cheap tricks some people pull.

[Neoshinobi]

Level does not equal skill, not with some of the cheap tricks some people pull.

You know i'm on the same level as you there right?