For the THFs out there

Okuza · Post by **Okuza** » Tue Oct 10, 2006 9:28 am

Saw this in a sig. Needs to be redone with a real (aka Mithra) THF, but this is one case where it's the thought that counts.

Post by **Sugami** » Tue Oct 10, 2006 12:30 pm

poor ickle taru

My party yesterday had a PLD and a THF, we started tricking me but turns out I pull too much hate as it is and the PLD can't get it back

so I turned into first voke.

One fight the ickle taru BRD runs up and starts playing his cute little flute, not known to him he's standing behind the crawler

so SATA then it turns around and slaps him one

May this be a lesson to BRDs and CORs alike, with THF in party choose where you sing/play songs/roll wisely

Tinacat · Post by **Tinacat** » Tue Oct 10, 2006 4:07 pm

That thf killed the taru, by hitting the taru with his crotch

...and apon further review, OMG, HE HAS THF AF2 HANDS

Tianshii · Post by **Tianshii** » Tue Oct 10, 2006 9:01 pm

THAT'S WHAT I THOUGHT TOO!!! --at first glance... looks like the taru is looking at that hume thf because he crotch-attacked the back of her head

Eviticus · Post by **Eviticus** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 9:40 am

I have yet to assault someone with my crotch and have them complain. >.>

Tianshii · Post by **Tianshii** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 9:49 pm

me either, but I would suppose that is because I am a girl

Susannah · Post by **Susannah** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 7:28 am

I was playing bard one time and theif thought to trick/sneak attack onto me, I died and deleveled and the theif laughed.

The thief did it again on next pull, I disbanded after dying again. They kicked the theif. I got re-invited and got another thief, one who knew what they were doing.

I really don't see the point in always having to do SATA together, I seperated them when I played thief and actually got better numbers.

Eviticus · Post by **Eviticus** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 8:17 am

The reason why you do them together is not for the OMFG numbers, but rather to make the OMFG numbers get TA'd onto the tank, so they can hold hate better.

Post by **Shirai** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 10:36 am

Susannah wrote: I really don't see the point in always having to do SATA together, I seperated them when I played thief and actually got better numbers.

It depends on the setup of the party and the mechanics they play in.
If you have a melee to off tank or turn the mob before the Thief uses his/her WS to Sata on the tank the extra damage may help hold hate on the monster better.
(I don't know for sure since I don't play thief.)

In the case where the melee can't turn the mob there is the option of just using TA + WS and use another SA when the WS is done indeed to deal an extra crit.

I indeed see a lot of thiefs use SATA from in front of a mob because the tank can hold hate pretty well which is indeed a loss of a SA.
But then again some thiefs are pretty lazy and don't want to make extra macros for WS with just TA and SATA.

As for thiefs sataing mages (yes I see Bards as mages also) in exp situations should be deleveled back to Valkurm dunes imo.

Post by **Sugami** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 12:30 pm

SATA+WS = 800-1200
SA = 250
TA+WS = 500-600

Yeah most THFs are lazy and only have one macro for SATA (I split them in the 30-37 levels I played) while other THFs will say it does more damage, which is true but you end up having a melee take beats or doesn't pull hate then it's still a waste.

I'd say TA+WS is enough for a tank to keep hate.

Ah the good ol' days when people actually did SC. DRG+DRK combo with a PLD tank, you'll never shift hate with Wheeling Thrust

nevermind the beauty of DRG to alternate between High Jump and Super Jump and have the DRK trick him/her instead and watch the hate get jumped away.

Tinacat · Post by **Tinacat** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 2:44 pm

Untill thf gets assassination at 60, TA by itself is VERY unreliable, as in it can miss, and does standard dmg if it does manage to hit. Assassination basicly exists so you can seperate TA from SA.

What ffxiclopedia says:

Game Description: Enhances Trick Attack.
Job Traits are always active.
Further Notes:
When Trick Attack is used while this trait is active, the next attack made by user is guaranteed to be a critical and cannot miss as long as the ability's requirements are met.

Keisuna · Post by **Keisuna** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 6:40 pm

I remember getting into a party not too long ago to level thief. We had a PL and we were grabbing Dancing Weapons out in the Champlain. I was trying to set up an SATA thing with everyone, but this one guy was just giving me lip about it the whole time.

So the first chance I got, I SATA'd him, which killed him in a matter of seconds. It wasn't so bad though, he got a raise from the PL and sat at the side for a while so we could keep fighting and getting exp. It did sort of wake the rest of the party up to it, though. SATA does awesome damage.

Okuza · Post by **Okuza** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 9:33 pm

Evictus wrote:The reason why you do them together is not for the OMFG numbers, but rather to make the OMFG numbers get TA'd onto the tank, so they can hold hate

It's not really the extra agro -- it's the guarenteed hit. Before Assassin JT, TA can miss. It rarely does, but it can. SA never misses. So, SA+TA makes sure the tank gets the agro boost. The extra SA damage is offset by the agro from the posititional provoke. Unless you have a blink tank setting up the 1st voke, the MP efficiency is lower, too. SA+TA opener is really only a pre-Assassin tactic for when the THF has no TP for TA+WS opening; TA+WS always hits and transfers agro even pre-Assassin.

The two most common reasons to do sa+ta+ws are epeen screenshot and renkei bonus. Even before Assasin was added to game, seperate sa/ta was better dps. A decent tank won't need or want a thf for solid agro, too. I never did as nin, and I'm nothing special.

Here's an example of why you might want sa+ta+ws for renkei: when we did the antlion NM for the PM, we did DRG->THF renkei on opening. After all the hard PM fights we were very paranoid. So, we built TP to 300 and then popped the NM. SA+TA+WS ~2100, bonus ~2100. Uh, "He's dead, Jim." This was before the dagger patch, too. We were expecting a rough fight even after the open. Guess not.

Level 3 bonuses go 100%, 150%, 200% for 1,2,&3-step renkei. In the old days before burn party, we'd set up a 2-3-step level-3 renkei and MB on each of the middle steps as well as the end. If that had been a 3-step, full bonus would have been ~4200. If it had been naked ws without sa+ta, the bonus would have been half of that or less.

Susannah wrote:I was playing bard one time and theif thought to trick/sneak attack onto me. I died and deleveled and the theif laughed.

Heh, I'd probably laugh, too, though maybe not out-loud. The only time I slay BRDs is when they step in front of me. I don't stalk 'em. Unspoken rule is that anyone that moves into TA position of their own accord is obviously wearing a "Trick on ME!" t-shirt under their armor. If it's non-renkei, the THF can pretty much choose the TA target. In a renkei party, if you stand in the TA spot, it's entirely your fault. In that case, the THF has no choice about who he tricks on or when he does sa/ta+ws.

Susannah wrote:The thief did it again on next pull, I disbanded after dying again. They kicked the theif. I got re-invited and got another thief, one who knew what they were doing

I'm not sure if I'd kick the THF or not. In general, BRD position is up to the BRD. THF has less choice. The BRD sata-deaths I've seen and caused have always been the bard's fault. 'Course if the THF is outright stalking the bard and lining up to slay her when there's no need -- /pcmd kick THF!

Group dynamics are touchy. I really don't like kicking folks from a group. I've only kicked for incompetence 2-3 times and I've been playing since release; eg. once I replaced a WAR with a DRG. The war refused to use axe and instead wanted g.axe. I had made it clear before I invited that we wanted axe for renkei. 5 JP+me and he tries the "I can't understand the translator" game. I think he understood the /pcmd kick, /goodbye. JP blm wouldn't disband to D2 him, too. Felt nice. One thing I like about JP is the loyalty to the group and lack of tolerance for someone that isn't a team player. Sometimes NA irk me with their "omg, you're not letting him do his own thing at the expense of the group!" attitude.

Post by **Sugami** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 10:51 pm

Eh I fully expect a THF to use SATA until Assassin. If they're unlucky enough to get into a party without a first voke then their usefulness is almost halved, if I was that THF I'd be pissed.

I was generally referring to 65+ parties where you (used to) make Light and have a BLM MB it.

Okuza · Post by **Okuza** » Sat Oct 14, 2006 1:21 am

Sugami wrote:I was generally referring to 65+ parties where you (used to) make Light and have a BLM MB it.

Ya, renkei party any sata-death is the fault of whoever stepped into it. But who does renkei groups these days? If it was a burn party, the onus is a lot more on the THF to be circling. I only sata in a burn for fun to get big numbers. I'd never line up on a brd for it, though the brd could zip in by mistake. It's happened before and likely will again, but I've never seen it happen twice in a month, much less twice with the same brd in same group. After a sata death, most brds flinch just from the sata-sound and cower behind the whm.

OTH, I gotta admit that Temptation is a small squeaky taru with fluttery ears sliding up behind something when I have 100 TP+SA+TA ready.

Post by **Sugami** » Sat Oct 14, 2006 9:46 am

People should still do SCs all the way to merits, they're just lazy and unless you're fighting colibris that die quickly you'd benefit from a good SC and MB.

Back in the days when I was doing Light the whole WS+WS+SC+MB would knock off half of the Dhalmel's HP, that's nothing to sneeze at.

Problem is most the mobs in expansion areas seem to resist Light a lot more than the old mobs do, Darkness is probably just as bad (also means using gimpier WS e.g. Impulse Drive, Cross Reaper, Evisceration, Full Break).

As a result of lack of SCs (not even Distortion with a THF 30-65) people just don't know how to make them properly. It's like we're raising a lazy generation of FFXI players. DDs don't use proper subs nor can they pull hate or work out how to SATA the tank

Ontop of which BLM being shunned from exp parties now and people seem to think this means they shouldn't SC anymore when a good RDM or SMN could MB, heck even WHM or PLD can on Light, but even still an unresisted Light can add over 1000 points of damage to the pool

</rant>

Kintrra · Post by **Kintrra** » Sat Oct 14, 2006 12:46 pm

For the most part I have to agree there, SCs are getting faded out and it's sad. BLMs are being shunned and I've no clue why, although that seems to be phasing out finally. Here lately tho, I've had a lot of pts that've had SCs, and we've been loving it. Yes, admittedly some of the darkness WSs are a little weaker, but I know I for one prefer using Swift Blade over Savage Blade....of course Vorpal Blade makes'em both look like shi!t, but yeah. <.<;;

And what's a "proper" sub Sugami? Only understandable one I see there is /WAR for tanks. o.O Other than that, it's their sub, let them choose it, if they're doing crap with that sub, ask'em to go change it. 'Nuff said. ^^

Post by **Alya Mizar (Tsybil)** » Sat Oct 14, 2006 5:40 pm

Without MBs, a BLM's damage output does not parse up that of to melees. But then again, the parsers have a hard time with DoT spells I hear.

Personally, in a standard type of party, I would rather have any melee rather than a BLM. I do not Haste anyone other than the tank. I do Refresh BLMs.

Okuza · Post by **Okuza** » Sat Oct 14, 2006 5:54 pm

Tsybil wrote:the parsers have a hard time with DoT spells

It's not possible to parse DoT spells. The damage isn't reported in chat log. Parsers "parse" the damage numbers out of the chat log and add 'em up. If it's not in the log, as far as the parser is concerned, it didn't happen. So, the parser would have to make a guess based; ie. it would need to know the per tick damage of every spell, assume it does full damage each tick, and interpolate the total based on the time of casting and the time it wears off.

BTW, you can't parse anyone's damage acurately but your own. Even an unfiltered chat log will drop data from those that are too far away.

Post by **Sugami** » Sun Oct 15, 2006 11:24 am

Kintrra wrote:And what's a "proper" sub Sugami? Only understandable one I see there is /WAR for tanks. o.O Other than that, it's their sub, let them choose it, if they're doing crap with that sub, ask'em to go change it. 'Nuff said. ^^

"Proper" support job for Skillchaining is one that facilitates the success of the said Skillchain. DDs should know their part in this and choose a sub accordingly.

e.g. if you have a DRG and a DRK doing Wheeling Thrust -> Spinning Slash = Light.

If the DRG subs THF and the DRK subs SAM they've boned that up since SA Wheeling Thrust won't pull hate if don't WS at the start and TA is useless for opening. DRK cannot Trick hate onto the tank and ends up getting all the hate from his WS+SC and ends up dead.
Now they could switch the order so the DRG SATAs the tank but without SA I'm not sure Spinning Slash will pull hate 100% of the time and you're also gimping the potential of Light by using the weakest WS second.
Think we all know it should be DRG/WAR and DRK/THF for that situation

Party setup should be determined before leaving town for camp, otherwise you'll get there with a DRG/SAM and a MNK/THF who can't do $#!7 together

(happened to me, dunno why I suggested for them to make Light >.>)
RNG in party... err crap! I'm sorry but they suck for Light due to high(er) missrate, poor ability to pull hate and weaker WS for closing (also inability to transfer hate)

I like having them instead of a BLM though and do SC with 2 other DDs

Post by **Alya Mizar (Tsybil)** » Sun Oct 15, 2006 3:54 pm

Also be aware that we here in the US and those in Japan have vastly different ideas about "proper" subjobs.

Sugami's example is fairly deep thinking about subs for NA/Euro style players. The Japanese often think about every job and subjob in the party, putting the pieces together for machine like precision. I was in an otherwise all Japanese party, late 60s, with both Paladin and NIN and a DRK/WHM. This would never be tolerated in a NA party, but to say the party worked well would be vastly understating the case.

No problem for me though, if the proper sub isn't WHM, it HAS to be BLM, and it is hardly ever WHM.

Kintrra · Post by **Kintrra** » Sun Oct 15, 2006 4:10 pm

Eh.....I look at it as working around things. As a tank, I realize there's a line of hate that I need to hold for someone to pull hate if they need to. If I need a higher line of hate or a lower one, I adjust. The only time I honestly cannot change this at will is as NIN with WARs and RNGs in pts. I've no clue what in blazes the RNGs on your server are doing wrong, but I had one in Bibiki Bay the other day throwing out 1500-2000+ Sidewinders. Needless to say, I ended up in my straight DD gear quite a few times in an attempt to deal enough damage to get hate back. <.<;;

Susannah · Post by **Susannah** » Thu Oct 19, 2006 2:28 am

Bard songs have such long cast times, if the mob moves I can't just interrupt the song to get out of the way so the thief can enlarge his epeen.

If you require theif to stack hate, you fail as a tank. Also, most first vokes take too long to get into position to get SATA up. For maximum effiency, drop the mob quick, that means not waiting for the rest of the party to cater to the theif.

Pheonixhawk · Post by **Pheonixhawk** » Thu Oct 19, 2006 2:57 am

I just think its a bit ridiculous that thiefs have to wait on parties to alight so they can SATA. Why can't SE just make it a normal solo ability? Show the thf's some luv.

Post by **Alya Mizar (Tsybil)** » Thu Oct 19, 2006 5:48 am

Susannah wrote:If you require theif to stack hate, you fail as a tank.

No, NIN tanks cannot operate without that extra hate, Untill 40, not even the good ones. For PLDs it is a great help, especally with an agressive MNK or RNG in the party.

And for the healer it is a blessing.

Susannah wrote:Also, most first vokes take too long to get into position to get SATA up. For maximum effiency, drop the mob quick, that means not waiting for the rest of the party to cater to the theif.

Most maybe, But on one alt or another I play THF and PLD too. I am in position QUICK even when I am the puller as THF. If a frrricking RDM can do this properly, anyone can.

Kintrra wrote:As a tank, I realize there's a line of hate that I need to hold for someone to pull hate if they need to. If I need a higher line of hate or a lower one, I adjust.

Please go into this further.

As RNG/WAR I know about hate lines, and I carefully adjust. Face it, Nocht gear is tissue paper with Racc.

But as my Elvaan PLD, I want all the hate. No one else needs it. And there is this wonderfull feeling when you KNOW the mob is focused on you alone no mater what the fool BLM does.

Am I doing something wrong? When does someone else need hate?

Mind you I have never played NIN in a party. I have a low opinion of the vast majority of Blink Tanks and stand in awe of a few. I refuse to fall in that great majority and plan to solo or DD NIN to 37 someday.

Okuza · Post by **Okuza** » Thu Oct 19, 2006 7:29 am

Tsybil wrote:No, NIN tanks cannot operate without that extra hate, Untill 40, not even the good ones

Hmm. This isn't quite true. First, before 37:ni, you don't want a blink tank to hold hate -- it has to be ponged or the blinks run out and the tank dies. Second, I held rock solid hate all the way through the renkei levels. Sure, if a BLM opens with Freeze or the RNG decides to Barrage when the critter is at 80%, that person is gonna die, but that's a good thing for the party. Stupidty needs to be properly rewarded. ^~

For nin, the hard part is building hate quickly. Holding onto hate once you have it is trivial -- just don't get hit. To build it fast, you need every last smidgin of HQ+enmity gear. Voke when it's on top of you (not when it's still far off -- voke agro decays quick when you're not hitting it). Open up with a WS (retsu is great until you get jin). Make sure you blind it. Then slow it if your debuffer is incompetent. Make SURE your whm opens with dia/II on the critter (not the debuffer -- debuffer needs to open with slow).

You need to have HQ/+1 weapons and decent atk, but that's about it. If you have good support, keep zerk up when you can. Revoke every time it's up. There you go. By the 3rd voke, nothing will ever pull it off you.

--

BTW, I'm decent as a NIN, but not outstanding. While leveling I'd get tells like "omg, you're the best nin ever!" -- which really made me wonder. I know a fair number of NINs who do a better job than me. I figured either there are a lot of sucky NINs out there somewhere or it was the Mithra-effect. Swishy tail uber alles!

Post by **Sugami** » Thu Oct 19, 2006 12:53 pm

I was a cheapass NIN and I didn't have much issue with hate, I'd just spam Ni spells. Guess that's where all my money went, whereas most NINs these days (40+) will have the Emperor/Empress Pin, Kote, Fuma and SH but refuse to use elemental ninjutsu

I only got into trouble when up against IT++s and there'd rarely be anyone to help me out so poor lil me get acused of being a bad NIN 'cause 7 shadows don't last long against a fast attacking IT++ mob with Double Attack and I quit

Anyways I digress... when you're in a 65+ SC party (not like that'll happen often these days) that's when a PLD doesn't want too much hate. Mistral Axe, Wheeling Thrust or Arching Arrow/Heavy Shot just won't pull hate off a PLD who's going out to get as much hate as possible. Not a major problem of such just need to arrange to SC at the start of the fight but the really good PLD can lower their hate so it would be possible to pull hate from them with a weapon skill.

Kintrra · Post by **Kintrra** » Thu Oct 19, 2006 6:12 pm

Tsybil wrote:
Kintrra wrote:As a tank, I realize there's a line of hate that I need to hold for someone to pull hate if they need to. If I need a higher line of hate or a lower one, I adjust.
Please go into this further.

As RNG/WAR I know about hate lines, and I carefully adjust. Face it, Nocht gear is tissue paper with Racc.

But as my Elvaan PLD, I want all the hate. No one else needs it. And there is this wonderfull feeling when you KNOW the mob is focused on you alone no mater what the fool BLM does.

Am I doing something wrong? When does someone else need hate?

Mind you I have never played NIN in a party. I have a low opinion of the vast majority of Blink Tanks and stand in awe of a few. I refuse to fall in that great majority and plan to solo or DD NIN to 37 someday.

Well, back when I was leveling PLD at least, there was a certain line of hate I needed to pull a lot of times, specifically so non-THF mains could SATA their WSs. Usually because whoever was opening the SC couldn't turn the mob, and pretty much killed the second DD's damage output due to loss of hate. So yeah, was necessary to ride the line at a certain point a lot.

As to NIN tanking without a THF, I've done it 3/4 of my NIN career, and I'm at 70. A lot of times I've had to back off of my hate line as NIN so the DDs can pull hate for an SATA SC. A good Ninja, which I'm proud to lay claim to being if anything other people have told me is correct, can put out enough hate to keep it as long as necessary. Unfortunately, once you hit about 69, this idea pretty much goes to crap as most WAR/NINs can now throw out 600+ Rampages against the current favorite mobs for leveling (ToAU areas), while your Blade: Jin, even pimped out with O-hat, Hauby, Coral Earrings, STR+ rings, and all that, will still only put out about 500 tops, and about 350 average. This is the point where Haste+ gear starts becoming a necessity to put out hits fast enough to make a difference.

Okuza · Post by **Okuza** » Thu Oct 19, 2006 7:36 pm

Kintrra wrote:Haste+ gear starts becoming a necessity to put out hits fast enough to make a difference

IMHO, Haste gear is for tanking -- any dps improvement is entirely incidental to that. Lower blink recast helps a TON when tanking harder things. There are hardly any low-level haste items, too -- just the swift&speed belts -- not enough make that much difference. If you want better dps, usually at those levels it's better to pile on more +acc and +atk.

Kintrra wrote:Blade: Jin, even pimped out with O-hat, Hauby, Coral Earrings, STR+ rings, and all that, will still only put out about 500 tops, and about 350 average.

Hmm. I do about 400-600 average on Jin, with peaks up to 1000. Uh, that's 75 with full merits, but there's still a couple of gear slots that are far less than ideal for Jin. I dun really remember what I was doing at 60 when I first got it. I do remember being terribly unimpressed with Jin at the time.

Kintrra · Post by **Kintrra** » Fri Oct 20, 2006 8:24 am

Okuza wrote:Hmm. I do about 400-600 average on Jin, with peaks up to 1000. Uh, that's 75 with full merits, but there's still a couple of gear slots that are far less than ideal for Jin. I dun really remember what I was doing at 60 when I first got it. I do remember being terribly unimpressed with Jin at the time.

Yeah, I know NIN75s with the uber-gear can slam out some vicious Jin's, but I was referring to around my current level. My Jin's are just now starting to get into the "whoa" range.